#907 Reflection & Consolidation

Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: after weeks spent on technology, society, and politics under our overarching theme “Pioneering Spirit with brAIn,” what actually stuck? In Room #907 of the Deep Talk Club, the group takes a reflection-and-consolidation pass through everything covered so far — expropriation, future skills, media censorship, climate storytelling — and digs into the previous day’s author’s breakfast with Ernst Wolff on data, information, and money as the three pillars of power, from Apple’s quiet move into banking to BlackRock and Vanguard’s outsized reach. Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…

Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.

A very good morning to you all. Today we’re talking about, or going into, a reflection and a kind of consolidation. Because over the past weeks, under the overarching theme Pioneering Spirit with brAIn, we’ve gone into various room topics, picked up various sub-topics, so to speak, technological developments, connections, societal considerations, individual considerations, all the way to political topics we’ve picked up, in order to talk about the connections again here too, and we’ve opened up diverse, multifaceted perspectives. And now today it’s about considering, so to speak, once more — that’s been a lot of days now — what are the essential things that stuck with us? What were maybe the biggest aha-moments for each of us personally? And how can that now be brought together, so to speak, again with the overarching theme Pioneering Spirit with brAIn? So also making this connection again, in order to, after these considerations we’ve made in individual cases, abstract the whole thing a bit further to the meta-level, and then look at what insights we can draw from that. So in that sense I’m really curious what comes together today, and you’re, as always, very, very warmly invited to join and, in dialogue, so to speak, look together, simply collect what comes to mind, what you’d like to pick up, and then we’ll see how the room develops today. And yes, and with that we’d then slowly wrap up this topic accordingly today, and tomorrow start with our next overarching theme, Power and Violence, which will then occupy us for several weeks again. Yes, and exactly, important, once more a quick reminder, we have a recording running continuously in the background, that means whoever joins automatically agrees that the whole thing is recorded and published afterward too. Whoever would like to stay anonymous, or maybe can’t speak because it’s too loud in the background or similar, of course also has the option to use the chat, to put in questions, thoughts or similar. And for those who’d like to join the round, we have three small room rules, first a profile photo in which you’re recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. That’s simply proven itself in the past, to make sure we have genuine contributions here and not Clubhouse trolls. And in that sense I ask you, if that’s not ensured and you’d like to join, to make sure these three rules are considered by you accordingly. Exactly, and with that I’ll gladly mute myself first and see who’d like to open the round with me this morning.

It would probably also be important that we maybe start the round with someone who’s also been with us over several weeks with various topics. That doesn’t have to have been every day, but at least that someone has really followed the room to some extent. For those who joined later, maybe gladly a brief recap. Today, following on from all these various days where there were various room topics under this overarching theme Pioneering Spirit with brAIn, we’re doing the reflection and consolidation today. And that means we simply want to look at what actually stuck with us, what were maybe aha-moments you saved, or also insights you took away for yourself, in the sense of, I’d like to look into that more deeply again, or look more closely again, or we’ve also opened up various definitions in individual rooms at times and so on, and picked up the connections too, that we look at that again here, to bring the whole thing together a bit again now, thought of as wrapping up. It’s not at all about being comprehensive. Each of us will remember certain aspects that we can then bring together again here in exchange, like puzzle pieces, in order to then abstract a bit further and look at what the insights of the past weeks overall have been. So please join, so that we can turn the monologue into a dialogue, because reflecting alone is difficult. That’s what makes our rooms special. So I’m just curious now who’d like to open this round with me today and simply collect with me. What do we have? What actually stuck? What were topics we picked up? What was it that maybe occupied you afterward too, where you maybe went into research yourself, or similar, and to just look here at various points where we can connect. Yes, once more the reminder, the room is recorded the entire time, and accordingly whoever joins automatically agrees that the whole thing will be published afterward too. And we have three small room rules, first a profile photo in which you’re recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. And whoever would like to stay anonymous can gladly also use the chat, to put something in here, so that we can pick that up too. With that I’ll gladly mute myself again now and see who’d like to join today.

Yes, dear ones, who was with us over the past days, weeks, who’d like to contribute something this morning. Otherwise we can gladly continue to bear the silence until quarter past. You know, then I’ll gladly close the room again, if nobody comes forward this morning. So we can continue playing this little game. One person or another might also not be able to, I understand that, when it doesn’t work sometimes. Logical, then it doesn’t work. But I think there should actually be enough people in the room who might be able to speak too, who were certainly with us again and again over the past days and weeks, even if not continuously. But that’s not a prerequisite either. So the main thing is that you caught some of the rooms, so that we can maybe pick up on one thing or another that stuck in your memory, to collect together and get into a reflection too. And yes, Andrea is just writing in the chat, unfortunately wasn’t there. Yes, then it’s difficult to speak up. I can absolutely understand that. Jürgen can’t speak today. He’s only listening. He’s already written that in. One person or another has already written, I’m just listening. Let’s see if someone still shows up. We have three more minutes. Otherwise there just won’t be a consolidation and wrap-up of the room. That would be a shame. Let’s see. Yes, and if someone’s here for the first time, I understand that too, that’s of course difficult then. But the good thing is, today is difficult, tomorrow it starts with a new topic, Power and Violence, we’ll look at over several weeks. That means starting tomorrow it’ll really be worth being with us again right from the start and really following that too, following the development of the rooms, so to speak, too, because we’re opening up a new overarching theme then. That means starting tomorrow it shouldn’t be an issue to join, so to speak, and be able to speak up too. Today of course it’s important that we maybe still have someone who can say something about it. That would be great. How does it look, dear ones? Two more minutes.

A very good morning, dear Erik. You’re making sure we keep the room open today.

Yes, someone always shows up to save it at the last moment. And I also find that actually a good summary, because, I wasn’t there every time either, but occasionally it really was the case that we had long silences with the past topics, and I think there too, I’m unfortunately not as well prepared as Marc, for example, is usually, but I actually just wanted to say that it’s already a good summary, that it always takes a long time to find the entry point here, probably also because the topics were, I’ll say, a bit out of the ordinary, or also often touched on things that don’t belong to the everyday survival, not survival, but consideration repertoire. So, yes, that would be a mini-summary on the meta-level.

Yes wonderful, thank you so, so much. Yes, I’d be interested to know what your personal assessment is of that. So was it sometimes just too distant for you, too uninteresting, or, because it did take a while sometimes before anyone joined at all, but I had the impression, toward the end it was almost a challenge again to actually wrap up the room punctually at nine again. We often ran a few minutes over too. I don’t know how you perceived that, Erik?

Yes, that’s actually always the case. The entry is somehow a bit difficult to find, probably because the topics are usually also very complex and extensive. And yes, finding an entry point there is sometimes, well, you probably think of a lot of things then, I can only speak a bit for myself now, and then have to first set a kind of seed point, so to speak, where you can connect to, and then it always develops really well too. So that matches my perception too.

Yes, if we now look back a bit again. What were the topics that particularly interested you, where you had the feeling, I took something away from that, or is there something specific that stuck, where you say, I can really still remember that well, I could pick that up again now, not content-wise, but really the topic, so that we can look at what actually was, so to speak, various things that maybe moved you too, or had some kind of after-effect, or something?

So I can spontaneously remember the topic of expropriation, because that’s really an area that doesn’t affect me now, where I first thought a bit in a different direction. I thought of a personal expropriation, then the room went in a global direction too, with currency devaluation and so on, and state expropriation, things like that. And yes, that was on one hand a difficult topic, because you’re a bit, because it’s maybe also a dilemma, in the sense of, do you want to find it good now, and what if it affects you yourself, would you still find it good then, and those are things that go around in your head, and sorting that out needs a bit of space, but that’s also exactly the good thing, we also established that, to really actively work on such topics, in quotation marks, in such a room, and then also for next time, when that comes up on the table, that doesn’t have to be here, that can, we said, for example in connection with elections or something, or if there are really current events, then you’ve already had that once and thought about it, and can maybe form an opinion faster then, or have maybe already formed one.

Yes, absolutely. And the interesting thing in this context was, and you just said it, maybe you have this feeling with one topic or another, that it actually has nothing to do with me at all. But especially again and again this complexity that became clear with the topics, and then also, when we looked at what chain reactions were partly behind it, that in the long run everything is still entangled with each other, and in the end, in quotation marks, usually has an effect after all, that we’re indirectly or directly affected by in some way after all, which might not seem so clear at first glance initially.

Sabine, a very good morning. What are your thoughts on that?

A very good morning. I unfortunately couldn’t… the difficult thing is that they’re all very, very difficult topics. Probably everyone can say some buzzword about the topics, but you can also go to Wikipedia and pull out a definition. But the way we went deeper into it, I think it made all of us think quite a bit, and just question, okay, we actually live daily with the buzzwords, whether that’s climate protection or rainbow, or what else is there, extremism, future skills, what else comes to mind, media censorship. We live with that, but I think we often don’t go that deep mentally into what that actually means for us, that we, I’ll just say it plainly in German, are quite often, mildly put, being fooled. I just wanted to say that.

Yes, thank you so, so much. Yes, you just picked up a few topics. Let’s collect a bit more. So future skills, media censorship, rainbow, climate you also said I think. Then we had the topic expropriation too. What comes to mind for you? So let’s gladly collect, because I think that’ll also bring us to further points we can maybe pick up again too, or make connections again.

Yes, Sabine.

So regarding climate protection I also looked at your three links, and I really have to say, I mean everyone knows this by now, they just take note of it, that we in Germany only contribute two percent, I think, but that’s blown up so much that we might even be causing problems for our economy and sawing off the branch we’re actually still sitting on. You could continue that toward digitalization or something. We’re very pedantic everywhere, or now with climate protection again, the building law that was briefly overturned last week. Oh right, that was also a topic, this parliamentarism and democracy, when this building law was overturned, that we’re working on things here in a small way, very extremely from Berlin, and forget to look at the big picture for ourselves, and actually keep putting ourselves increasingly on the sidelines as Germany.

Yes, thank you so, so much. Regarding these three links, that was in connection with the climate topic, that you looked at, Sabine?

Yes, that was this Günther Ederer, who first said, oh, in winter it snowed, and then said, oh no, that’s not snow anymore. Ten years ago they already said, snow doesn’t exist anymore, that must be industrial dust. And so it just went deeper. You know, something like that sticks with you, and then you think, yes, that’s right, that’s exactly how it is. And we’re doing that again right now too, and probably in ten years we’ll probably still be okay climate-wise. I mean, nobody denies that we should do something. But that right now we’re basically focusing all our politics on the building law and doing nothing else, and want to rush that through quickly, that’s a bit sad.

Yes, thank you. Erik, does that bring up further thoughts for you too, that you’d like to connect to?

Yes, we had the topic future skills a lot, especially. There too I mostly listened a lot. I also had ideas in the direction of, which future is even meant. There are many futures, whether that’s next year, or in ten or in a thousand years, and also the connection to the past. There are skills that were important a thousand years ago and will probably still be important in a thousand years, and others are more current topics and specialist skills. So I found that topic nice too, because I could sort that a bit for myself, and yes, actually in almost every room it comes back to how important education is, and I think once someone said, I don’t remember who it was, education is the enemy of power, or we went further, actually, to abuse of power, and such things then open up new fields of thought, so to speak. There’s also the saying “knowledge is power,” and knowledge and education can then also be put in relation to each other again, and exactly that’s things that come to mind for me in this context now.

Yes wonderful, thank you so, so much. And expressions like “knowledge is power” also fit with the topics we’ll pick up again starting tomorrow under the overarching theme Power and Violence, and look at from various perspectives again. So I’m really, really curious about that, and I’d also like to connect again to the author’s breakfast from yesterday, at various points, from various perspectives, to build the bridge here again too and look at that again. So I think we have really, really many connection points there that we can continue and deepen further, from various other new perspectives again.

Jürgen, a very good morning. What do you have to contribute to the topic of reflection and consolidation?

That might be very limited, and I might have to step out again immediately, to jump back to the sitting room. I’ll pick up exactly this point you just mentioned, dear Yasemin. Specifically, for me yesterday was the successful conclusion of a period of a multitude of discussions and terminology and connections, through this — I’ll evaluate this quite deliberately now — such an amazing and, for me, extremely enriching session with Ernst Wolff. Allow me, sorry if this all sounds a bit fragmented now, from my point of view, to put together what I took away from the past weeks I was there. I was in the yard for a longer time too, but what remained, and why yesterday’s session was actually already the wrap-up for me, brilliantly done. Specifically, I took away this triumvirate of data, information, and money, or financing system, under the umbrella term of power, which is instrumentalized by pioneering spirits of a new kind in our time. Especially, of course, the pendulum tends more toward the negative side, but not exclusively. Regarding data, we talked about these said data octopuses. We talked about Chachibidi (ChatGPT). We talked about how important, and how in the future the power relationship actually tends toward those who own data. We talked, over the past weeks, several times about the influence of those who sell data and turn it from a datum into information suitable for influencing our behavior, completely value-free to say. That’s the second pillar. And we talked about the lubricant that keeps the whole thing going, both on the side of the data, the data octopuses, sorry if I keep using that word, and those dependent on it, namely the media industry. Specifically, that’s the financial industry, filthy lucre and money. We talked, if you remember, about blockchain technology in connection with Bitcoin, and we also went into, I have to say, the depths of the monetary system. These three pillars were for me, or are for me, the load-bearing elements from the past weeks, and the roof over that, the roof that always actually brought us into the connection, bringing the complexity together, for me that was three terms that also came up yesterday. That’s always the topic of education, it was the topic of enlightenment, that came up several times yesterday. Enlightenment understood not just as a new form of thinking, but also a mandate for us to have an enlightening effect, and to make sure we enlighten ourselves. And then I come to the third term through that. That’s the responsibility we have. The responsibility each individual has. And we also talked several times about how it can’t be the crux of the matter to always point fingers at others regarding responsibility. I once put that in this image, that I say, the one who points a finger at others, points four fingers back at themselves. So in that sense, dear Yasemin, that was an overarching theme that, during the time I could follow it, simply thrilled me. And I really cheered inwardly yesterday about this wrap-up. I found it extraordinary. Thanks again for that. And sorry for my shaky voice right now, that has health-related reasons. And I’ll withdraw now to listening again. Thank you for listening, dear ones.

Yes, thank you so, so much, dear Jürgen, that you joined nevertheless, to bring in a contribution too, your contribution. There were really so many various aspects included now too, to bring that together. And yes, and it wasn’t by chance dramaturgically, so to speak, in terms of order, that yesterday, as the last topic before we then go into reflection and consolidation, into an exchange today, Ernst Wolff was at the author’s breakfast, because that makes it very, very clear again, also here, the World Economic Forum, which was talked about, ultimately also makes clear what’s all entangled in the background, so to speak, and to look at that historically again too, in order to then bring the various aspects, which we’ve also partly already looked at individually beforehand, into a consolidation, so to speak, into a connection too, and present them. So I found that really, really exciting yesterday at this point too, and especially regarding power and violence, which we’ll then start tomorrow with the first approaches, so first tomorrow with the term power, and then the day after tomorrow violence too. And then we’ll open up various things at various points, all the way to communication and so on, so that we also look at language too. Because for me it was exciting yesterday not just to see or follow, content-wise, what was on the level in exchange with Ernst at that point, but also very, very exciting to observe. And I also took all the screenshots and so on in parallel, what happens in the chat, what questions come up, how they’re dealt with. And in that sense I’d like to pick that up again too, on the linguistic level etc., and similar, again over the next few days at various points accordingly. We’ll have to see how that fits in, because I find it really, really exciting too, to always look not just at the content-wise topics, but also the interactions accordingly. And yesterday we did have people in the room who, I’d think, at least I didn’t see it or notice it, weren’t in other rooms at all, in quotation marks. So also this development of Deep Talk, they partly don’t follow or catch at all, but only join sporadically. And in that sense I found one thing or another quite interesting, what happened yesterday, in quotation marks. And I’d also like to pick that up and work through it too, to also make certain things that happen there in the interaction clear again, and not just have experienced it, in quotation marks, but really go into reflection here too, of the interaction. And I find that really, really exciting too, at this point.

Erik, Sabine, would you like to connect here again? Maybe also to yesterday’s author’s breakfast. How did you experience that?

Yes gladly. I have to say, I slept through the first 15 minutes. So I missed the introduction, but I think I actually caught enough. I’ll definitely listen to it again, because I found it really interesting. I also found that a lot more plain talk is spoken. So you probably invited him deliberately, but I notice in society overall, when you start discussing, we’re moving toward sharper tones. And he didn’t say anything that isn’t true. He was also always attacked a bit. There he said he can prove everything he said here. So I believe him a hundred percent too. It comes across to you… He just uncovered things, so to speak. I felt a bit like at a board game, you know, Kadan or Risk or something, conquer, that this is planned long in advance, what’s actually going on here, and we often stand there a bit clueless and get surprised somehow. And you do see, it all goes back to America, and everything in volumes we probably can’t really counter.

Yes, thank you so, so much. Erik, were you there yesterday?

No, unfortunately not. I was out and about yesterday and unfortunately couldn’t participate. Now “really” in quotation marks. But I did hear a bit that there were connections to historical events too, and I can say that about myself too, I often think, with these, I’ll say, outrage topics, I consider how it was in the past, so there were often similar outrages in history, or new technologies, or also upheavals, and right now I’m actually listening to an audiobook that deals with this topic a bit and goes through history. And there too, it’s always, first China is the world power, then it’s India, and then Europe, and then England and so on, and Spain, and that’s maybe not correctly reproduced in order, but in principle, so it’s always been the case that big upheavals and changes took place in history, but also small things, like today’s youth for example. That’s a saying as old as humanity, that you get upset about the current youth. And for me that’s always a bit of an anchor for most of these topics. It’s basically been there before, and this discussion was basically also there before in a similar form. And sometimes it feels a bit like they’re going in circles. But on the other hand, I can, for myself, classify that a bit, and maybe also reduce the outrage peaks through that a bit.

Yes, Sabine, you wanted to connect again.

Yes, I’d like to say something more about the digital ECB money. He put that really, really precisely, and he saw it very visionarily, but I could imagine that’s even correct. Only he doesn’t go into the small details there, he really goes into the big picture. He said, if everyone had their digital ECB money, roughly represented like a wallet in Apple Pay, but that’s then the only account we still have, where in principle it’s even controlled how much you’re allowed to spend on what, where you then take away the banks’ credit creation power, and that’s part of the core business of our banking system. So I found that a bit “uh oh, is that going to be our future?” Because then we’re honestly not far from China anymore. That made me a bit suspicious. But I don’t want to say it’s not correct. I heard something about digital money last week. There it’s not thought in that direction at all, of course. There they of course want to prevent undeclared work and money laundering and such through the abolition of real money. But in that direction, as he said it, that’s never mentioned. Of course not.

Yes, and the point is, of course, these aren’t individual aspects, but if you actually look at these developments historically to some extent, and then look especially at the last few years, what developments are taking place, or what legal adjustments are taking place too? Because a whole lot is really happening right now, that’s actually barely addressed in the media. And that’s why it’s really worth it. So it’s not at all about accepting everything Ernst said yesterday, so to speak, but to certainly let question marks arise, that lead to you maybe researching one thing or another yourself too. However, and that’s what I find striking, is, if we just look at all these topics we’ve opened up under this Pioneering Spirit with brAIn, it becomes clear that they’re already all somehow connected to each other. That means we have certain developments that exist. We have some challenges in the financial industry that need to be mastered, but it’s really difficult too. So what’s actually the solution, or does some kind of new system just need to come along at this point, because otherwise, well, because there’s just nothing left to fix here, in quotation marks. So there too, Ernst Wolff isn’t the only one in this context, there’s also, for example, the former board member of Degussa Gold or something, Markus Krall, also in the field of finance and so on, if you look at those interviews, also viewed historically, how that developed. And that has nothing to do with Corona or anything, by the way, but Markus Krall, for example, already had various YouTube videos and so on in this context years ago, that you can look at, where he basically already said, so to speak, that this basically has to come, because at some point it tips over, so to speak. So also, and we didn’t have that in the Pioneering Spirit topic, but at another point we also talked about it, Jürgen also brought great numbers there and so on. So also things like, how will pensions be financed in the future, and so on. So we have massive challenges at many, many points here. And on closer examination, and that doesn’t just affect Germany, other countries too, on closer examination the question arises, what do you actually do with that now? Or what maybe has to come next now? And could it maybe actually be the case, that’s now the starting question at one point or another that you could ask, that maybe one thing or another accordingly needs to be prepared, also societally prepared, so that there’s acceptance for certain topics too. And if we look at the past years, while digital money was actually rejected in many places by the population, after the pandemic events happened, suddenly you saw developments where people only paid by card, or maybe even retail chains partly started saying, we only accept card payments or similar. And that didn’t lead to outrage in many places, as it might have before, but rather to a high acceptance at this point, through what developments took place in the meantime. And it’s quite exciting to see how these topics, so how one leads to the other at this point. That means what would have been unthinkable three years ago, in quotation marks, suddenly has completely different acceptance. And that affects many topics. Whether that’s now a health app, whether that’s now the digital patient record. And, and, and. There are many topics that go along with this, where suddenly certain points of acceptance are created, so to speak, in the population. Of course with different arguments, to transfer one thing or another into implementation too, all the way to these mRNA substances too. We’re now at the point where…

…actually it was an emergency authorization and so on and so forth. And meanwhile the discussion in the background has already gone so far that this should be extended to other vaccines too, even though there are still no long-term studies or similar available, for example. And that’s also exciting to observe, what’s happening in the background there too.

Sabine, you wanted to connect again.

Yes, I think I also notice that, but I think that’s also the topic, acceptance becomes easier because it’s simply more convenient, and people often don’t know the background at all. If everyone had heard the book yesterday, I bet there’d be a bit of a murmur through the crowd, and people would say, oh, I hadn’t thought of that at all. So I also know how many people had a defensive attitude against WhatsApp, because of the data. And today, how many people are there who don’t have WhatsApp? It’s a bit like, you slide into convenience. It’s usus, you don’t even think about it anymore. And you find the topic of enlightenment, education again. So the lack thereof. Because many people don’t think about it, but they also don’t know the connections, and then you just say, it’s convenient. That maybe that’s the first step of many steps, and in the end, at some point, someone says, oh God, that was the first step, we should never have taken that. That brings you back to the topic of future skills too. We’d also somewhat split that into two, future skills, simply thinking more about what you’d already need today, or future skills as skills we don’t even know yet today. So I think we’re back at the topic of education, enlightenment there too. And Ernst also said that yesterday. He was asked, what can you do about it, or how can you do that? And he also just said, enlighten, enlighten, enlighten.

Yes, absolutely. And I also find that this field of tension became very clear again too. And we already talked about that before. This field of tension, so on one hand it might need certain regulations, certain centralization possibly, and globalization isn’t per se anything negative at first, in quotation marks. Everything always has its two sides, and at the same time, well, if we talk about dependencies and so on, it also has many disadvantages that come with it, so that there are again considerations, also in the discussions, whether it might be better to decentralize again at one point or another, think more regionally again and so on. But it’s not that easy to answer at all. It’s really a field of tension, because regardless of which direction we look at it from, that again has its own, quite specific, advantages and disadvantages, so that you can’t think in “extremes,” in quotation marks, according to the motto “decentralization everywhere,” globalization and so on isn’t a cure-all either at this point, and in the media there’s a lot of, if we look at what’s happening in politics or also in the media, a lot of polarization simply. That means either one extreme or the other extreme, and here it’s incredibly important to look at this range in between again, what facets there are here, and what solution possibilities might also be found here. And that was also one of the discussions that partly took place in the chat too, according to the motto, well, those were things that were opened up, like Amazon and so on, whether you now basically only pay by card, or whether you go back and use a bank account and I don’t know what. But here too we see very clearly, according to the motto, well, we didn’t hear from Ernst yesterday that we should boycott Amazon or something, but basically it’s already also about a healthy relationship. The question is, up to what point, in quotation marks, is it still okay, and from where does that possibly tip over, and also seeing certain dangers, and correspondingly also doing enlightenment work, so being enlightened yourself, doing enlightenment work, and accordingly getting involved and taking responsibility. I think that was one of the main messages that took place yesterday, without ultimately demonizing one or the other. And I think it’s important to see that from this perspective.

Sabine, you wanted to connect again.

Yes, exactly, I found that really essential too. He said, I think, he represented his book about Amazon too, and then he said he can’t avoid it, because if he doesn’t appear on Amazon in this industry, then he’d already have a third less sales per se. And I think that shows a bit the significance. And a similar example was given about BlackRock. I mean, probably there aren’t that many who don’t have an ETF from BlackRock in their portfolio, which has no relevance though, because those are peanuts. But that, of course, also co-steers the whole big picture. Or what he said, BlackRock and Vanguard here, which are both giant asset managers. If one has an advantage, then the other indirectly has an advantage too, because the push is just in that direction. And crazy, that Microsoft, in the background — I didn’t know that, for example — co-operates this machine for BlackRock. So that was, I had this example, we also had connectivity once, and if we’d done that, who sits everywhere there, then that would probably have come down to very few big names. And they rule the world. And then we’re back at what Jürgen already said earlier. It’s not just money that’s essential, but money and data. And he presented that yesterday too. And we can only make that understandable for ourselves in a small way somewhere, if we understand it. So topic education again.

Yes, thank you so, so much, Jürgen, you’re back with us again.

Yes, with a side entry again. I hope I have enough time to share with you. Specifically one point I already sent you a link to, “communicated,” because I think it’s worth sharing this learning effect I also had with others. You once asked me, in connection with a room, whether I could imagine that these pillars I opened up there, between data, information, and finance, whether that could come into one hand. And I rather denied that, or said, I can’t imagine that, simply because of the necessary depth and breadth of competence needed to lead and manage this conglomerate, in whatever direction. I’m no longer of that opinion, because I found, after a certain phase of reflection, we have this situation, and we’re running into this situation. The example is Apple, that Apple obviously acquired one of the essential competencies a few weeks ago that’s still reserved for the financial sector, namely the deposit business and interest on savings accounts and fixed-term savings accounts. That’s, for me, now I’m interpreting this, a first step to possibly bring together these two determining, two of the three determining pillars of our future, into one hand. And as a positive I’d also like to point out, grist for my mill was especially the really clear statement, which I also made once in a room, that I say, digital money will herald the end of the financial industry and the banks. There I’ve now found a fellow campaigner, and that was a wake-up call for me. What I found really good was that he said this with such clarity — you have to consider, it’s being recorded, and he’s a bit different from me, small light, that he said this with such clarity. Hats off. Thank you for listening, my dear ones.

Yes, thank you so, so much. And yes, Sabine, you can gladly connect again in a moment. And given the time, I’d also say let’s gladly slowly wrap up at this point too. I think there’ll also be the opportunity over the next days and weeks to let it resonate further too. It’s nice if there were a few aha-moments at many points, but at the same time maybe also one thing or another really stayed open, and question marks simply arose, because the focus also shifts for us again through that, so that we look at one thing or another we see in the news, what’s presented to us in the media, maybe with a different perspective too, and thereby possibly get the possibility to get into research at one point or another again too, and so on. And that’s why, we’d talked about that, also in the room about the insights, that means the insight we have today, and that we maybe had a few weeks ago, represents a different one. And it’ll also be different again if we look a few weeks further, because it always connects to where we currently stand as a phase of life, which topics we’ve dealt with in the past too, what experiences also play into that, how we’ve seen certain things so far, which rooms we then also open, what kind of reflection also takes place, what aha-moments arise for us, so to speak, personally and individually. And then, with this interplay of the further topics we’ll open up here too, new insights will certainly keep arising too. And it’s also completely “normal,” in quotation marks, that one thing or another might also change as an opinion, because we might have thoughts where we say, okay, I saw that this way or that before, and now I see it a bit differently. Not because of ignorance or similar, but through this reflection and this consideration, and then also parallel the things we encounter in everyday life too, where through this focus-sharpening, so to speak, observations, analyses, reflections take place for us again individually too, new insights can be generated too. And in that sense that’s basically an ongoing learning process we all go through. So that applies to me equally, and it’s simply totally exciting here too, to really be in this dialogue, be in exchange. Maybe also, at one point or another, not to approach certain topics with pre-formed opinions or beliefs, but always with this openness too, and we’ve talked about this attitude too, with a certain openness to dare to approach topics, and also to look and see what can arise for each of us again from this exchange.

Sabine, you can gladly connect again, you wanted to say something more, and then I’d like to introduce the closing round for today. That means you can then gladly bring in your closing word for the room today, and then, if Jürgen is still with us on stage, then gladly Jürgen afterward, and then Erik in that order.

Yes gladly. Jürgen just named Apple, and I mean, that shows you how it works. They start with Apple Pay. Everyone has that, I mean, I don’t know how many people today don’t have Apple Pay. Basically everyone does. And if now, at some point, advertising comes, well, in Germany it’s not approved yet, but if it were now approved in Germany, hey, you get three percent on your savings account with Apple, I click here, and I’m in. If I now alternatively imagine, oh, Commerzbank is now also offering three percent, I first have to open a new account, and if you then imagine the processes, well, where would you be faster, without thinking much about it. So it’s made relatively easy for them, because they already have the data access. And there we’re back at it. And what I’d just like to say at the end is, well, it’s like this for me, I’ve learned a lot in the past weeks and have become quite suspicious about a lot, and I also notice that when you discuss with people, you often have very different opinions, because I also notice that others don’t concern themselves with the topics as much, probably also because they simply don’t have a Yasemin and a Deep Talk Club. But what I of course also notice is, we have very many, oh right, on the topic of banks I already said back then, when the fintechs came, why don’t the banks join in here? Why doesn’t a German, a Commerzbank, open a fintech think tank in Frankfurt, put a few people there and pay them to think? They were far too arrogant for that. They had them think in Berlin, and meanwhile they’re now buying good fintechs on the market. But then the idea of the fintech is gone too, because they get standardized there relatively quickly, and then unfortunately a lot is gone again. So you have to say, I mean the banks, the financial industry unfortunately overslept the thinking there too. I want to say that quite drastically. So others were much further ahead and much more visionary there, because they said, hey, what’s happening in the world. One more thing at the end, and it was said earlier, we have so many construction sites, like pensions and so on, but I have to also say, when you talk with people about emigration or something, then it often comes up, yes they leave and then come back, because they know how well off they are in Germany, whether that’s health insurance, pension insurance and so on. Only you also have to consider, how do we finance that in the future? Right now we’re just financing that by simply dipping into people’s pockets, and nobody cares anymore how deep that reaches in. Basically it also reaches into our own pockets as taxpayers then. That won’t continue like this, and these topics actually aren’t discussed at all. I mean, I myself lived in America for three years, they have a completely different health system. I don’t necessarily want to trade, but it has to be financeable somehow in the end. Well, Yasemin, thank you for the great room, again. It was a bit difficult to get into, but it was also a very far-reaching topic with a lot of individual facets, and I have to agree with Jürgen, I also sat there a bit with my mouth open in front of my phone yesterday. It was pretty intense to have that presented so densely all at once. Thanks.

Yes, thank you so, so much, and I’m curious what closing words Jürgen and Erik would like to add for today too. And in that sense, with many topics, it’s also, not just with this topic, but also with the other topics, maybe understandable then, why this depth at various points is necessary first, to open the doors, so to speak, in various directions, thinking directions too, in order to then be able to draw a kind of conclusion from that. And you saw that yesterday too. I think, even if we hadn’t gone through all the topics beforehand, in the way we did it, and at the intensity we did it, and then an author like Ernst Wolff would come along. I mean, he was already here once before. Back then we quite deliberately chose the children’s book with the freedom topic, where I said, the other one is just too delicate, in quotation marks. That also needs a bit of preparation, topic-wise too. And I’m quite open and honest, we talked about that too, and I then also said, Ernst, let’s look at this topic gently, gently. Because I’m sure that among our listeners there are also quite different people. Some might have already dealt with the topics more intensively, others maybe not yet. Some might have already dealt with some topics in depth, but maybe don’t know some backgrounds quite clearly yet, or it’s always just been looked at from one perspective, but these connections and links aren’t that clear, and that we just look together at how we best design that too, to sort of, well, stimulate thinking a bit, and everyone may and should, and that’s always desired, really critically question these aspects that also came in yesterday too, so also not consume here, but really critically question, gladly also go into checking it yourself again, and to form your own opinion based on that, based on that too.

Jürgen, your closing word for today for the room.

Thank you, Yasemin. I’d like to say two things. First, I see the continuation of this current overarching theme with the topic Power and Violence as the logical consequence of that. It builds on what we, and we’ve had this topic again and again, power and violence in connection with our Pioneering Spirit topic. It continues what we’ve crystallized out again and again over the past weeks, that in many things it comes down exactly to these two terms, and, really important, the necessary distinction between these terms. So in that sense, hats off. I would have had another alternative for myself, my favorite topic, the chain, not understood as a process chain please, but the conceptual chain between reflection, thinking, and acting, but that’s also a topic area that keeps catching up with us and that we discuss. And dear Sabine, regarding you, or in reflection of over 45 years of activity in the industry that you mentioned, specifically with Commerzbank and other banks too, there I just say, the singer’s politeness falls silent there. Not because I don’t have the courage to say what I think, or what insights I took away from that time, but because this topic, like many others, needs a dedicated and very lengthy, contrary examination. Thank you, and a nice day to you all.

Yes, thank you so, so much. Reflection, thinking, and acting, I’ve definitely noted that too. I think you can make a nice overarching theme out of that too. Maybe it’ll even fit quite well to continue with that after Power and Violence, I could very, very well imagine that, because it’s also then the logical consequence, maybe especially regarding acting, to also look then at reflection and thinking, and look again here at what that means in differentiation, or what maybe conditions the other, and so on. So in that sense I can very, very well imagine that, I’ll definitely note that.

And Erik, what are your closing words for today?

Yes, I’d like to draw the arc back to the beginning again. We needed a bit more than ten minutes to find the entry point, and now, as also said earlier today, in the end there are so many topics and connection points that we already had to run a bit over time. Exactly, I’d find that a nice wrap-up of the room now. Thanks and a nice week to you all.

Yes, thank you so, so much, and I can really recommend to everyone who wasn’t at the author’s breakfast yesterday, to actually listen into the podcast episode too, once it’s published. That’ll presumably be next Sunday, if it goes according to plan. Sometimes there’s a bit of a delay, so that we go out a day later or so, but it’ll also be communicated via LinkedIn, so really stay on the ball here too. And it actually was, I think, a very interesting author’s breakfast yesterday. For those who weren’t there, that’s what the recording is for. We did briefly have a technical glitch, which I also found funny, in between the systems crashed in the background, LinkedIn connections and so on. But I checked that again, that’s really just a small sequence, only toward the end. A shame that this sequence is missing then, but overall we have everything in the can, in quotation marks, and I find that really valuable too. So in that sense definitely listen in too. Maybe also for those who were there. A repeat can’t hurt either, because it’s relatively a lot at once, in quotation marks, and the second time listening you might hear certain other things that you didn’t hear the first time. So it’s always worth it with our author’s breakfasts too, either with a certain distance, or also to listen in again.

And I’d like to pick up this aspect again, the term, I don’t know now if you used the term, Sabine, I think arrogance regarding the banks, and having overslept one thing or another here too. And especially this term arrogance, I encounter that at various points, whether we now look at the automotive industry or look at other points. I think that’s one of the biggest dangers, in quotation marks, because if we just lean back on this German quality and whatever, and always look at topics with great arrogance, then it’s not surprising that this gap just keeps getting bigger, because the necessity to become active here isn’t recognized at all. And simply wrong decisions are made based on an arrogance that’s partly simply no longer justified at all, from my point of view. And we’ve been able to observe that at many points over the past years, and also when the Tesla plant opened in Berlin, in the Berlin area, how the reactions were, the interviews you saw in the media from various unions and so on, where I was actually shocked by the statements that were made there. And I think that’s one of the biggest dangers in our here and now, so to speak. Because if we continue with this arrogance — I was, and I’d like to briefly share this before we wrap up the room, I was at a market research session yesterday. I really, really like doing that, especially when it’s about innovative topics, because it also gives me additional insight into various areas you normally don’t have access to, but against the background of participating in market research, with corresponding confidentiality declarations and so on and so forth, certain insights become possible. On top of the topics we otherwise also work on in companies, but there we’re not necessarily always in innovation contexts. And yesterday it was an automotive manufacturer again, and I can’t and may not talk about the details, but I can tell you one thing, when you see what they’re already working on, and that wasn’t a German manufacturer. The market research, of course, needs a certain lead time, that means it’s not like that’s coming to market tomorrow. However, we’re not talking about 25 years or something anymore here. That means, if they’re already conducting market research now, that means it’s supposed to come to market in the next few years too. Otherwise they wouldn’t be conducting market research with the end consumer for it already. And accordingly, of course, making corresponding decisions too. But the options presented to you, whether that should be A, B, or C, if you look at what options are presented here. The German automotive manufacturers are far, far away from that. And that’s frightening, because actually, I think I already said this once in the context of Tesla, many haven’t realized that it’s no longer about building cars. Actually they’re PCs on four tires. That has nothing to do with cars anymore. And I don’t want to say that negatively in that sense, but really in the sense that this is why it’s so important that we get into this exchange, that enlightenment work is also done, to make certain things visible here too, so to speak, and talk about these challenges and problems. At the same time not seeing the technologies exclusively as the cure-all, or anything else. Yes, to emphasize again, everything always has advantages and disadvantages, just as opportunities open up through it, disadvantages will also result from it. So also to certainly see and discuss this side of the disadvantages too, at the corresponding points where it needs to be discussed, and at the same time to look at how we, as a whole country, ultimately can also pitch in here, as a people, contribute our part too, to really initiate and bring about changes here too. And there we’re back at this aspect we also had yesterday. Even if it sometimes seems like, according to the motto, can I actually still do anything there, or what effect does my contribution have on the whole thing? Overall, every contribution ultimately has an effect and unfolds an effect. And that’s why, nevertheless, to look at it again with confidence and hope and trust, and not have the feeling that it doesn’t help anyway, or similar, but quite the opposite, now more than ever to look at where we can pitch in, in what form this pitching in can look. And that might give different answers for each of us, but that it’s also not doom and gloom, but on one hand recognizing the dangers, and at the same time also seeing opportunities and potential. And there we’re back at the overarching theme Pioneering Spirit with brAIn. If we understand how the connections are, if we look at it historically, if we understand roughly where the journey is heading, even if we can’t predict the end, but we can think in scenarios, then we also have the possibility to help shape it. And there we’re back in the responsibility that each of us also carries. And in that sense it’s important that we accept this responsibility too and handle it responsibly, and not lean back according to the motto, I can’t change anything about it anyway, or it has nothing to do with me anyway. At the end of the day, we are the people, and if Germany is doing well, we benefit from that. If Germany is doing badly, then we’re all affected. And in that sense each of us carries a responsibility, and each of us also has the task of fulfilling this responsibility.

Yes, those are the words I wanted to say in closing on this topic, this overarching theme. And I’m really looking forward, I found the past days, weeks really great. Great perspectives, great examples. Wonderful how you participated, even if it was sometimes difficult in the first few minutes. But it shows that toward the end it still, those were just these initial difficulties, once someone made the start, accordingly, like today too, then we run over accordingly in between too. Now it’s just about logically continuing with power and violence, and we’ll make the first approach tomorrow to the topic power, then the day after tomorrow the first approach to violence, and then we’ll open up various perspectives again. The first two rooms serve, again, both to find an entry into the topics, and also to then do a comparison. We’ve prepared a lot of topics again for the next weeks, to look together and check, have we considered everything, is everything included, or is maybe still something missing somewhere, that then tomorrow and the day after tomorrow comes in through you, through your perspective again, so that we can incorporate that into the process accordingly and take it into account accordingly too. And so you’re very, very warmly invited to definitely be there again tomorrow and the day after tomorrow, to set this initial spark together, and then of course also in the other rooms. Every morning at 8 o’clock in the Deep Talk Club, and then Sundays with author’s breakfasts, or this Sunday we have the digital campfire, then also with personal, unvarnished stories on the topic of power and violence from my side. Yes, I hope everyone could take away a bit again today too. And yes, and I’m especially happy about those who were maybe in the room for the first time today. A really warm invitation especially to this target group again. Yes, maybe to really be there from the start tomorrow too, with the new topic we’ll start, and participate accordingly too. I wish you a wonderful start to the week for now, whatever you have planned, and look forward to tomorrow. Until then!