#1016 Acting and Routines

Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: How can routines support us in acting? That’s the question we explored in Room #1016 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme of “Action.” Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…

Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.

A very good morning to you all. Today we’re looking at acting and routines — how can routines support us in acting? You’re warmly invited, as always, to join and step into the exchange, so we can open up this space for reflection together. Quick reminder, the room is recorded the whole time and published afterward, so joining means you’re okay with that. I’m genuinely curious what impulses, thoughts, and experiences we can bring in here, and hopefully build bridges in all kinds of directions again. With that, let me mute myself and see who wants to start with me this morning.

Good morning to the round. Let me start with a quote I haven’t used in a while: we see what we want to see. Applied to routines, that would mean, for me, routines are first and foremost important for structuring certain workflows better. They come more easily to us because they’re always the same workflows. For me it’s not just the same workflows, but always at exactly the same fixed times. And at the same time, I always ask myself, since your titles provoke me, checking and reflecting on the statement — does it hold true for me, does it hold true generally? We see what we want to see. And generally I see routines as tools that organise our lives and make life easier. At the same time, if they’re rigid rules, routines can obviously also prevent any deviation. That could mean, for instance, that as a company I stop offering new products, stop looking for new employees, and so on. So routines can mean standstill, but they can also mean progress and movement.

Wonderful, thank you so much. I was just thinking about how the room title provoked you, acting and routines — I think you’ll need to explain that a bit more, or did you mean the subtitle?

No, the subtitle, we do that incredibly well. For me, the club, our meeting here, is genuinely a challenge. I actually asked our friend, I called him yesterday, whether it’s possible to train perspective-shifting like a muscle. Because all of us, constantly, no matter what area we’re active in, whether in a partnership or professionally, are constantly presented with perspectives, or situations, we have to deal with. Some of those are pleasant, some less so. And it helps me when I manage to shift perspective. And since I’ve been engaging with you and your rooms, I’ve noticed, or believe I can subjectively notice, that a perspective shift is easier for me now. And today’s topic is acting and routines, and I always ask myself the positive question first — how does acting, how do routines, what effect do routines have on my own acting? Namely, structuring my day and having more flexibility, being able to get my workflows done faster and with less effort. We’ve learned that our brains love routines, because routines use less energy, so things come more easily to us. We notice this when driving, for instance — that’s a routine too. Sometimes we don’t even consciously notice routines anymore. With bookkeeping or writing invoices, you should concentrate, but there are also other routines that don’t require maximum concentration. And at the same time I ask myself, of course, if we have fixed routes, you called it so nicely, guardrails, routines can be guardrails too. If I’m moving within a road and never leave that road, never go onto the dirt path, then I have trouble finding new paths too. And that’s why your rooms are, for me, every morning, not just enrichment, but mental training at the same time.

Thank you so much. Let me ask you something — essentially you said there are two sides to it, if I understood correctly. Routines can be helpful, favouring certain things I want to do, but on the other hand they can also mean standstill, if I understood that right. Would you elaborate on that briefly? I have a follow-up question on that.

Sure. I’ve picked up a new routine recently, and I’m grateful to our friend for it. He does a lot of sport and enjoys it too. And I know sport is really important for my health, which I’ve neglected. I have this ring system on my phone, a health app that shows me when I’ve closed certain rings. For me it’s not about a distance, I just said I want to burn a certain number of extra calories each day. And this month I’ve set myself the goal that every day, rain or shine, I want that ring closed. It brings me no advantage really, and it’s not a big deal, but I said I want to pick this up as something new. And to develop it into a routine, I want to do it every day. Every day, meaning Monday through Sunday, same as the Deep Talk Club. And you notice that when new things come into our lives, if you’re flexible, we can also take on new intentions, new goals — routines matter for goals too, or as an entrepreneur goals matter, seeing, ah, I can set new goals, I can build new goals into my day. Now, if this movement wasn’t part of my previous routine, I naturally find plenty of reasons and arguments — I don’t have time for that, not now, tomorrow when the sun’s out, or when the sun’s out but it’s not too warm. And that’s the case where a rigid routine, one fixed for the whole day, prevents trying out new actions. Acting is our topic, after all. And I think everyone has to decide for themselves that their day is structured in a way that leaves time set aside for a certain routine. You, and all of you, dear listeners, have become a routine for me — the Deep Talk Club has become a routine of mine. Other workflows follow after it. And then I also have certain times of day that stay flexible, depending on what demands come up, what needs doing, or whether I want to implement something new.

Thank you so much. Let me look a bit closer at this, and maybe bring in another term into the discussion — the term “habit.” On one hand, the question for me is whether there’s a difference between habits and routines, or at what point does a habit become a routine, you could phrase the question that way too. And the other thing is looking at whether, when routines are deliberately established, that actually carries this negative aspect, or whether it’s worth differentiating which terms we’re using in that context. I’d like to look at that more closely. I see our other friend has joined too, let me bring him in directly, and then we can draw cross-connections. Good morning!

Were you just addressing me? I missed that.

Yes, probably due to the switch just now. I was addressing you, yes.

Okay, I need the cue, which is totally correct from the moderator. And that’s what’s lovely about our room, that we maintain a genuinely mutual discipline, speaking discipline. That’s part of what makes this room so good, and always so refreshing. I’m grateful to you — something was already brewing in me. I’m grateful for the segue. You mentioned the term habit. And what was brewing in me was, we’re building a room without defining what we actually mean by routine, sorry, terminology — what we mutually agree routine means as a definition. And now the stirrup for me was the term habit. I’d had a different term in mind, though I don’t want to draw a distinction there — you can extend the word routine either to behavioural routine or acting routine. And the term that popped up for me was “behaviour pattern.” That’s a term that, admittedly, in my experience gets thrown together in a lot of publications, but thankfully differentiated in very few. And I think that exact differentiation is really important for our connection to acting. Because, remember, we defined acting as something that can happen both consciously and unconsciously. And a routine, and here’s the crux of it, is for me a conscious action that I carry out, that I’ve integrated into my daily schedule. Consciously, because I want to achieve a very specific goal with it — take our friend’s example, with his sport, closing his ring, which I’ve now understood, and various things, like brushing teeth, morning exercise, or whatever else. That’s routine for me, conscious. And the essential difference from a behaviour pattern is exactly that point, the unconscious. That we carry certain, I’ll use it loosely, routines, meaning patterns within us, that we no longer consciously perceive, but that essentially determine our daily schedule and, if you like, free up time for creative or other activities. And these behaviour patterns, why are they unconscious, in my understanding? Because we’ve recognised them, through experience and learning processes, as positive, or as negatively preventive, received corresponding feedback, yes, this is a pattern worth adopting, and therefore internalised it. And that’s how it becomes unconscious. But we still carry it within us. That would be my contribution to today’s topic. Thanks for listening.

Wonderful, thank you so much. Would you like to follow up on that?

Yes, that’s a challenge. Thank you, you’re completely right, we always start with terminology. And I can confirm that, I feel the same way — that habits, hopefully I’m repeating you correctly, occur without conscious thought, and routines are consciously chosen sequences of action.

Wonderful, thank you so much. And behaviour patterns, as you said, can be either helpful or hindering. And routines are, in a sense, built on behaviour patterns too — though again with this distinction between conscious and unconscious. And the moment we develop routines to achieve a goal, we obviously have aspects we can see that are meant to support us in doing something, achieving a goal. The question is, can there also be routines that developed unconsciously? Or are we then really just talking about behaviour patterns or habits?

I can’t hear you right now.

Sorry, can you hear me now?

Yes, now.

So I’ll stick to my position, because my argument was that this conscious/unconscious distinction, exactly that difference, makes the difference for me, I don’t claim universal validity, in distinguishing between these two terms. And if you asked me why this nitpicking, in quotation marks — I think it’s actually in your own spirit too, the distinction between conscious and unconscious isn’t nitpicking. But that’s only one aspect. There’s another aspect, and now I’ll open a fairly wide window here — the second essential distinguishing point for me, and you know I always say this explicitly, to distinguish it from any scientifically verified claims, this is my own position — a routine, for me, is an individual matter. A behaviour pattern, as I defined it, is a result of learning processes and experiences. A behaviour pattern can also form on the level of community, not just for me, but within a community, a society, an environment, as a pattern. And the wide gate I’m opening now is that behaviour patterns, ultimately, become determining factors for our civilisation and our culture, while routines are determining factors for our individual behaviour.

Thanks for listening. In that context, the question that comes to mind for me is, take brushing teeth in the morning as a habit — we learned it from childhood, and it became a behaviour pattern, essentially. Maybe I did it completely unconsciously for many years, simply because that’s how I learned it. And at some point I realised, actually this is useful to me too, and I’m going to keep doing it consciously now. Does that then turn, from habit or behaviour pattern, into a routine, because I’ve now become aware and want to consciously continue it? Or does the terminology not change in that context? I’d find that genuinely fascinating to look at — not just for newly developed, consciously developed routines, but if I say, a behaviour pattern I’ve discovered that I find beneficial, that I might even want to develop further, at what point does that become a routine?

If I may use the tooth-brushing example — once this, you defined it as a pattern, meaning for me it runs completely unconsciously. I get up, I’m still half asleep, and the first glance goes to the toothbrush. Absolutely on point. I don’t see any conflict there at all. To answer your question directly — it becomes a routine, a conscious action, the moment I, for instance, have to change my daily schedule because of certain events, and suddenly realise, I need to hurry, I need to catch a flight, I no longer have time to brush my teeth. And then I might relocate that tooth-brushing in time, say, to when I’ve arrived at the hotel. So it’s actually a really essential point, thank you for pointing that out. Here too, with these terms, as with many others in my view, there are no clearly sharp criteria that always determine, this is a routine, or this is a behaviour pattern. The transitions are, in my view, fluid, and so my own decision to distinguish based on conscious versus unconscious — I’ll repeat myself, in the tooth-brushing example, my pattern for the day suddenly gets disrupted by an event, a new situation, a new environment, and I now consciously think about what matters to me, brushing my teeth matters to me, I don’t have time for it now, I’ll make up for it later. And then the routine happens at a later point in time. I hope I’ve answered your question.

Wonderful, thank you so much. Would you like to follow up on that too? In the meantime, someone had joined and wanted to add a comment, but then left the room, so you’re back in as a listener automatically now, and would probably need to signal again that you’d like to speak, so I can bring you in, provided you’re able to of course — let’s see if that works, or whether there’s some technical challenge again.

Would you like to follow up in the meantime?

On terminology, I always notice how much the topics blend into each other. Routines, for me, are workflows, and they can also be rituals. And you’d asked earlier, can routines, which are a conscious decision, still run unconsciously at the same time if it’s simultaneously a workflow? And now we notice, the deeper we go, opening a new drawer each time — my work processes are a conscious decision, but within that workflow I can still have unconscious actions, in the sense that, I decide to do my Asia business from nine to ten, that’s the conscious decision. Unconscious is, maybe I don’t even notice that before I start, I put a fresh coffee on the table. Unconscious is maybe that I notice I checked a few other emails first that have nothing to do with it. So within this conscious decision, this workflow, there are a lot of complex things happening around us at the same time. Above all, we often think we’re multitasking, which mostly doesn’t actually work. So it’s entirely possible that I’m doing a routine activity and still doing unconscious things within it. While brushing my teeth I might notice, as you said, oh, I actually need to leave soon, time is tight, so I do this and that on the side while brushing my teeth. Well, I need both hands for that, but maybe I do something else on the side to save time, pack a bag with one hand and so on. So within a routine workflow there are still unconscious actions, because we’re constantly in that work process, and our own private workflows aren’t prescribed the way a pilot’s are, who really has to act according to the checklist. He’s not allowed to do anything unconsciously, or the plane crashes. So for a pilot, or someone on an assembly line, one work step has to follow another, or the parts wouldn’t fit together. As someone self-employed, the way I’m allowed to work, it’s entirely possible the phone rings and so on, and if I interrupt the action, interrupt my routine workflow, no life is in danger. I don’t need a hundred percent concentration, because nobody’s at risk if that workflow and routine gets interrupted for a few seconds.

I’d love to come back to that, especially wanting to offer another perspective on it. But first let me bring in our other friend. Good morning! Let’s see if speaking works now too.

Good morning. Yes, I had some technical problems again. First I couldn’t get straight in. Then the mic was somehow open — once I think you’d muted me, and I couldn’t unmute myself. And then you all disappeared for a bit, I couldn’t hear you anymore and left again. Just for the background, since it’s our test week after all. I’d like to follow up too, on looking at routines. Coming from my 15 years working in behavioural and motivational science, I come at this from a different angle, and I see some things a bit less, let’s say jokingly, romantically, in terms of how much of it is actually self-chosen. Whether a routine, and we’ve made the distinction between conscious and unconscious, whether routines, or which patterns, are actually self-chosen, or adopted. And how much of it can actually be harmful. Because in my work, with conflict management, performance development, I very often deal with people who’ve experienced trauma too. And there are people, across every level of education, who’ve lived, forced themselves into, routines for a lifetime, sometimes up to their 60s or beyond, sometimes older people too, that they use to get through life, and everything around it doesn’t function, is highly damaging, and maybe also for people they’re obligated toward, children and so on. Making a workable life happen, going to work, and actually achieving inhuman levels of output, because of toxic external influences. Those are routines too, but they have nothing to do with how I run my working day, or my personal development. And I bring this up because when I work with people, I first have to help them figure out what of that is actually their life, or how do they even want to live? Once those other circumstances are gone, once they’ve realised, I need to do something here, what routines can I even develop now, or which ones do I still want? And all of that gets defended at first too, because it worked for a long time. But they don’t come to me because they’re doing well — usually there’s burnout, a nervous breakdown, severe health impairments. And these are people who would never go to a psychologist, or who’ve tried unsuccessfully. And from that perspective, I have to say, the range of what’s actually happening there is much bigger. And I think it’s important to share that too — what we’re all doing here is helping people build awareness. What can you do, what can’t you do? And that ties into routines too, even if we’re just selling services — if our acting, how do I steer the acting, or how do I steer the acting of my potential customer, that’s more than just a nice bunch of flowers. Okay, I think I’ve gone off on a bit of a tangent now.

Thank you so much. Quick technical note first, just so you know in the background — I didn’t mute you. I think the moment someone raises their hand and joins, there’s this switch, and you get automatically unmuted for a split second and then automatically muted again the next second, the system does that fully automated. And then I think you left the room and came back in. And every time someone re-enters the room, they’re automatically switched back to listener and have to be unmuted again, either by raising their hand, not the emoji, but signalling you want to join as a speaker, and then being unmuted, or through a direct invitation. Just a note for everyone else too. The aspect you raised is really, really fascinating. We could look right away, is that a routine or a habit in that case? That would be my first question to pose. Because you said in the meantime that people sometimes refuse to accept or see it, or want to change it. That suggests to me it’s more a habit, one that maybe wasn’t even conscious to me at first. And habits are also really hard to change sometimes, because they’re stored in parts of the brain too. That’s one thing. The other is, the moment the whole thing has this compulsive character, as you just described, and other areas suffer massively, and the person might even want to change it but somehow can’t manage to, the question is, at what point, since you mentioned trauma, at what point are we talking about a pathological state? That would be the next thing. Also really interesting in relation to accompanying someone. Is that then something better handled in therapy, in quotation marks, rather than coaching, for instance? That would be relevant for me, as a professional in the field, to see, where’s the boundary of my own competence, and where does the mandate stop.

And then I wanted to offer another perspective on what our friend raised earlier, and then we can draw cross-connections again. We’d talked about learning stages in one of our rooms, or several, in the past. And in that context I’d said that at the start, when we learn something new, we’re first in the area of unconscious incompetence. Meaning, maybe I don’t even know that I can’t do this, or that I might want to learn it, or whatever. And maybe it’s feedback from outside that makes me aware I have this unconscious incompetence. And with that feedback, this unconscious incompetence becomes conscious incompetence. Meaning, I’ve now realised I can’t do something. If I then decide, I want to be able to do this, and start making various efforts to learn it, then, at the next stage, it becomes conscious competence. That means I’m learning the necessary skills, acquiring various things, so it becomes an ability. But I can’t do it yet, I have to keep thinking about the process, I have to make an effort to get it right. And at some point, once I’ve done it often enough, it becomes unconscious competence. Meaning it turns into a certain automatism, so I don’t need to think about it anymore, because I’ve gathered enough experience with it. I know how to balance it, or how to handle it, in order to apply it. And what you described earlier, I wouldn’t actually distinguish between pilot or not pilot — I think even a pilot, over time, works through their checklists quite unconsciously in parts. But at the beginning, when we’re learning something new, forming a routine, there’s this effort behind it, because we have to concentrate on doing it correctly and applying it correctly. The moment it’s learned, and sufficiently trained and practised, over a period of time, depending on complexity, could be shorter too, depending what we’re talking about, then, and this is really interesting, the question is whether it doesn’t become a habit again, because I no longer think about it at all, I just do it.

Let me give our other friend a chance first, since he’d already raised his hand, and then you and our other friend can follow up too.

Thank you, but now I’m overwhelmed — that was a lot in the last few minutes. Sorry if I go back to the original intention I raised my hand for, giving feedback on what our friend said, I don’t see her real name at the moment. She raised a really essential thing, where I again, sorry, this isn’t flattery, come back to this distinction between conscious and unconscious as a guiding principle. She said that when she talks with her clients, they often cling to their routines, want to hold onto them. That clinging is, for me, an expression of the conscious. And in that sense I’d also call it routines. And I actually wanted to take that contribution as a bridge back to our opening headline — the question, how can routines support us? And for me your contribution was exactly the initial, or rather the outcome — why do we cling to routines? Why do routines support us? And that’s a really essential point for me, alongside efficiency and effectiveness in the daily schedule and so on. It’s what happens within ourselves. Routines give us security and self-confidence. And I’d like to apply this to myself as an example — this daily thing, our friend keeps highlighting it, this daily engaging, debating, exchanging opinions, opening perspectives, here in this room, is a routine for me. I enter into it consciously, because I see a benefit, because I can communicate here in a very sustaining and very respectful way. And for me, countless perspectives open up. And the result of that, for me, is that I gain a certain level of confidence speaking publicly. And it also gives me self-confidence, to say things and think out loud too, without sticking to my actual behaviour pattern that always tells me, always be well prepared, if you say something you have to be completely at peace with it yourself. And that’s why your contribution was so valuable to me. Thanks for listening, everyone.

I’d like to add a question to that — let’s let it sink in first. I’ll bring in our other friend’s contribution too in a moment. The question that comes up for me is actually whether consciousness alone, since we’ve made the distinction between conscious and unconscious, is enough to speak of a routine. Let me give an example: someone who smokes, and smokes regularly, decides at some point, possibly consciously, to keep smoking. I’d find it hard to call that a routine in this context. Maybe we can look at what other criteria, besides conscious or unconscious, are needed to actually speak of a routine. I’m genuinely curious about that. Let me bring in our other friend first, and then you can follow up too.

I want to apologise to you all, I have a follow-up question for our host, I know this throws you out of competence mentally. Out of competence, exactly, and out of concentration. You just listed the conscious and unconscious incompetence stages, and I wrote it down, maybe I wrote it down wrong. At stage two, the moment I know I can’t do something yet and I’m willing to learn it, I wrote down conscious competence, but I don’t have that yet. It probably has to be, the moment I’m willing to learn but still can’t do it, I’m in the learning process — did I understand that right, then I’m actually still at unconscious competence, because I’m not competent yet. Or do I have the conscious competence then? I don’t have that, do I? At most I’d have a conscious incompetence. Could you clarify that?

So I want to learn something I can’t do yet. I’m also aware that I can’t do it. That means I don’t have competence yet, but I have conscious incompetence, that I can’t do it. Is that right, or did you mean it differently?

Yes, the second stage is conscious incompetence, in this model. So the first stage is unconscious incompetence. The second stage is conscious incompetence. Then the third stage is conscious competence, and the fourth stage is unconscious competence.

Thank you very much for that clarification.

You’re welcome. Would you like to follow up too?

Yes, I wanted to address your question about that distinction between conscious and unconscious, the switch of the smoker who decides, despite everything, to keep smoking. In my view, that’s the same as the tooth-brushing example I gave — that this behaviour pattern, unconsciously internalised in us through learning and experience, gets reflected on, checked, triggered by some external influence, some stimulus. And so this behaviour pattern gets examined in terms of the value of a routine, of a conscious action. And that’s really one of the essential cores of reflection — getting clear on what’s actually happening in me, and whether this pattern I no longer think about at all is actually still worth applying and continuing, given a new state of knowledge, a new experience. Meaning, this smoking. And then comes the decision, no, the pleasure gained outweighs it. I decide consciously. And in that sense, for me, it’s a — sorry, admittedly I’m not able to phrase this precisely — it’s definitely a break for me, because I’ve consciously confronted a situation, a new questioning of a behaviour pattern — waking up every morning, first reach, but not for the toothbrush, for the pack of cigarettes. I become aware that this is the start of the health issue. And then I examine it, consciously evaluate it. And then decide. And in that sense it’s then a routine that I consciously enter into. And now I’ll grant you, it probably has an aftereffect for a while — I can imagine having a knot in my stomach for a day or two, asking myself, did you really decide that correctly? And then it becomes a behaviour pattern again, and then it runs, following the original sequence, exactly the same way going forward. But I’ll say again, I don’t see a clearly sharp criterion between routine and behaviour pattern. And I base that on what I said earlier — a routine is an individual matter that I’ve consciously signed off on and see as advantageous, while a behaviour pattern can well be something I’m not even aware of at all. And that’s where the point you raised comes in — that at some point, this unconscious thing has to become conscious to me. And in that sense your distinctions regarding those four competence stages are really fitting too. It’s difficult, I know, but I hope I could contribute something to it.

Wonderful, thank you so much. Let me give our other friend the floor directly, and then our other friend wants to follow up too. And maybe this example fits well with the client experiences too.

I’ll be quick, we talked about this yesterday — I keep noticing, through this double meaning of acting and routine, that we get so influenced by how complex this is, that yesterday, on acting and communication, we actually only talked about communication, and didn’t tend to the actual root, acting. And today we’re getting stuck on the word “routine” too, and not getting into acting. And I keep noticing that. But it’s simply due to the complexity, always, when you have to connect two concepts. And to address your point — I think I know when I have a routine. If you told me, for example, do sport, it’s good for your health — our topic is routine and acting — I don’t have that routine yet, but you told me literally, do sport, I promise you, you’ll feel better, you won’t have back pain anymore. Then I have to decide whether I want to implement a new routine or not. And now I’m at the topic of acting. If the pleasure of doing nothing is more appealing to me than putting on sneakers because it’s effortful, if I don’t get into the new routine, I consciously decide to stay in my old one — that’s also what our other friend raised, if I cling to old routines and don’t implement new ones, then we have exactly today’s room topic: how do we get into acting, how do we manage to implement new routines, and how do we manage to get into acting at all, regardless of what habits, rituals, or routines we’ve had so far. So I don’t actually see it as so separated from each other. Yesterday, when we talked about communication, we naturally also, to some extent, redefined the terminology, picked up what we’d covered in other rooms and so on. But I remember, for instance, that example about letting off steam, with the kettle, the pressure cooker and so on, and one of the questions raised in the room was from our friend, about the example she’d brought up — why does he do that, it doesn’t achieve anything. And there we’re directly in acting. Meaning the terms are already so interwoven — forming a routine without acting, without doing, isn’t even possible in the first place. So I don’t think it’s the case, from my view, that we only talked about communication and didn’t build enough bridges, same as today. Of course I can ask, how can I get into acting through routines? And that’s also the question in the subtitle, how can routines support us in acting? But I also find it fascinating, this discussion about how it can have hindering sides too, and specifically with this terminology, that it doesn’t have to be beneficial, but that there can also be routines that hinder us in one place or another. And I think a lot of people aren’t even aware of that, because when we talk about acting, about routines, the term routine is initially fairly positively connotated, so we think it’s always helpful, in quotation marks.

Go ahead.

Right, let me address that. Let me phrase it so we can talk about it — if a routine is a rigid rule that prevents any deviation, then it might also prevent making more revenue, finding new customers, new employees, new behavioural rules and so on. So again, if the routine is fixed as a rigid rule that prevents any deviation, that’s the point where I want, or should, reflect on it, become more conscious of it, to avoid falling into that routine trap.

Wonderful, thank you so much. And to build the bridge back to the competence model, the learning model — then we’re at the level of unconscious competence. Meaning, from the moment I’ve reached that unconscious competence in the context of a routine, it can also, if it becomes too rigid, bring disadvantages again. And that makes clear how closely these terms, behaviour pattern, habit and so on, are actually interwoven with each other. Wonderful, thank you.

Let me bring in our other friend now, and then our other friend can follow up too.

Let me give my feedback in between — wow, I love this discussion, this engagement we’re doing with the topics here is just great. Now let me try to get back on track, since I wanted to say something a while ago. But since I’ve lost that wonderful thread, let me address the last thing. I see it the way you do, that I wouldn’t separate it that sharply either. Maybe briefly on the point, who am I dealing with, what are my clients, or what do I do with them? Essentially, we look at what they’re passionate about, how they act from their personality, through automatisms, because that’s just how they’re wired. Personality has an extremely stable component. And where it harms them, whether in communication, in the company, that someone needs to speak up more or less, or hold back because they’re too combative, or needs to reorganise so that…

The sound’s gone again on my end.

Let’s see if it comes back. I can’t hear our friend anymore right now. How is it for the rest of you? Can you hear me?

I can hear you, but I can’t hear her anymore. Can you hear her right now?

I can’t.

Okay, some technical thing again. Alright, let’s keep going for now, we can check again in a bit, maybe we’ll get it sorted. I’m not sure now, was it our friend or the other one next?

He wanted to follow up, go ahead.

Yes, after our other friend also raised the complexity aspect, I wanted to make a connection again, I try to do this often, to rooms we’ve already had under our overarching theme of action, that I clearly see connected to the term routine. Two rooms specifically come to mind for me — one was acting and self-knowledge, the other was acting and goals. And that’s why, sorry, bear with my ramble, it’s worth speaking of routine as a conscious process that includes the conscious engagement, the reflection — namely, subjecting these routines occasionally to review, control, reflection. And why, or rather what for — sorry, what for, namely the topic of self-knowledge. Because I keep developing, and the environment I move in keeps developing too. So a beloved routine I consciously maintain can well become obsolete. And the second was our topic, acting with goals. There’s really no goalless acting. The question for me is, again your topic, whether these goals are consciously or unconsciously accepted or absorbed by us. But fundamentally, a goal always comes with a benefit attached. I don’t just want to reach a goal, I want to achieve the benefit tied to that goal, the “what for.” And that’s the second essential point for me — occasionally, let’s call it a kind of overarching routine, to hold for yourself, that at some point you take on this routine of reflecting on your own routines, consciously checking whether they’re still opportune as routines, as conscious acting. Thanks for listening.

Wonderful, thank you so much. Let’s see if our other friend wants to follow up, and then let’s move into today’s closing round.

I don’t see her anymore, so either she’s dropped out entirely or it’s not working, and she’s decided to disconnect. I think we should slowly move into the closing round then, and I can use the time to announce tomorrow’s and the day after’s rooms too. Would you like to add something?

Yes, gladly, and I’ll go straight into my closing word for today with it. Thank you for the room. Sometimes, through reflection, I have to ask myself a question that really, really hurts to answer. And that ties into what was just said. I’m an entrepreneur, and I often ask myself, am I really an entrepreneur, or am I an “omitter”? And then I come to what was already raised earlier — it would certainly be possible, since we’re talking about acting, for me to five or ten times my revenue if I put all my energy in, if I changed my goals. The question is, since we’re always dealing with acting, do I actually need those goals? The idea of having a penthouse in London is nice. The idea of having one in Florence too is nice. I could probably achieve it, but now we’re back at acting and goals — what benefit does that actually bring me? I’m totally happy with what I have. I’m content with the goals I’ve set myself. I’m very, very happy. And at the same time, when I go into self-dialogue, I have to ask myself, am I really an entrepreneur, or more of an omitter? Am I omitting getting that, or not? And then the question again is, what’s in it for me? What are my goals, how am I happy? Who sets those goals? My environment, exactly what was raised earlier — do I have to prove to my environment that I have a penthouse in London? Or is it enough for me to live wonderfully in London, be healthy, and happy? And that’s the topic you raised, whether it’s routine or action, or communication and action, a really important topic, because the painful truth is, whatever we set out to do, whatever goals we have, if we don’t get into acting, then we’re omitting. We’re omitting the path toward our goals. And when goals change, it’s still hard to get into acting. And getting into acting is, for me, daily, genuinely daily, one of the biggest challenges, but one that also always requires reflection, because goals can change, wishes can change. So thank you so much for this great topic, because I don’t think there’s anyone in this room who hasn’t grappled with, where do I want to go, where do I want to be, do I really want that, and how do I get into acting? Thanks.

Wonderful. Especially that last point you just raised is mega fascinating, I think — we could easily discuss an entire room on just that. The thought I’m having right now is, of course I can also reformulate goals, so it’s not a case of not achieving a goal, but rather — especially with the penthouse example, imagine you’d set that goal, got into acting, and at some point along the way didn’t reach it because something else came up, and you changed the goal — you’d still have acted, in a sense, regardless of whether you now set a new goal, a different goal, a smaller goal and so on. And that also shows how much you can, in a sense, manipulate that on one hand. But I wouldn’t only see it from that manipulative angle — it can also be necessary, or helpful, to reframe things, to cope better with something, handle it better and so on. There we have those protective functions again. So a genuinely complex topic popping up here in the last few minutes. Really funny, actually.

Let me check — our other friend’s back with us now. Let me bring her in briefly so she also gets the chance to add her point, and then also speak the closing word for today. We lost you from the moment you said, what I do with my clients… maybe you’d like to pick it back up there. And we’re already in the closing round now, so maybe you’d also like to underline your highlight for today.

Okay, I didn’t even know when I got kicked out. I suddenly couldn’t hear you anymore and had to try twice to get back in. So, that’s been a while now. What I do with my clients is, we look specifically… we first look at their personality, what they’re passionate about. That has a lot to do with automatisms too. Personality has a very high, stable component. And then we look at where they have a need to change their behaviour, whether in communication, because they’ve moved into leadership, a leadership task they’re not used to, whether there are conflicts, whether it’s health. Those can be very different things. And then we look at what behaviour might even — if it’s not something company-driven, where there’s a need, this has to be done now, but rather the client, say, comes to me with severe health problems, then I of course ask, where did you bend yourself so far out of shape that you could get this sick in the first place? Meaning, what damaging patterns and routines have you learned, kept, whatever, that maybe even sit somewhere in the realm of self-defence, that’s meant a bit ironically. And what can be changed in what you’re living, so you feel better? Meaning, where can you actually lean into your own personality, so your automatisms can run on their own? And where can you train behaviour that’s useful to you, so situations that are difficult for you become more manageable? Meaning, also developing competence in certain areas. But it has to fit the person too, because I don’t believe in rote-learned things, or “everyone has to go jogging,” that’s nonsense, because there are people who don’t get happiness hormones from physical exertion, so I have to think of something else. What’s a good option for this person, how they can integrate more movement into their everyday life and manage it well, without it just being agony, which would make them give it up anyway. And the other thing, I wanted to briefly say, on the earlier comment where I mentioned trauma, where you said, even when it gets into psychological or psychiatric matters — I mean severe life situations, where someone actually pushes through, maybe for a lifetime, goes to work to provide for the family, has a difficult environment, never learned to take care of themselves, and just carries it through because the children need providing for, all with a huge sense of duty. I’m not talking about obsessive-compulsive disorders — those people know very well they’re fighting through something, but when they notice, my life is different now, or I want to actually live now, the obligations are gone, then of course there’s conscious and unconscious resistance too, because the question is, what of what I’ve done up to now actually belongs to me, what do I actually need? So, but I’m not talking about the pathological cases. I’ve dealt with obsessive-compulsive disorder too, but that was someone consciously referred to me by doctors, to look at what competencies from their personality could help them move forward, because therapy hadn’t helped. So, and the feedback, I think I said this earlier already, I found this discussion wonderful. This mental high-flying gave me a lot of joy today, and I’m looking forward to more.

Wonderful, thank you so much. Would you like to go?

Yes, let me adjust my closing word. I believe I was among the single digits in attendance when the Deep Talk Club started, right at the very beginning of the Clubhouse phase — I think it was around the fifth or sixth episode when I first came across you all. And taking today’s topic, I realise, and I’ll hold onto this for myself, how routine this room has become by now. Not so much how disciplined and respectful, but how routine it runs, in a conscious way of interacting with each other, with a conscious, I think, structured approach to exactly the complexity that was highlighted earlier, and that keeps challenging especially the moderator, but also the participants, to keep coming back to the essential thread and stay on topic. And that, ultimately, in my view, alongside your high competence as moderator, is a really essential competence too — this decision to work with overarching themes, and through that, laying that complexity and complication bare and making it clear for everyone what we’re actually dealing with. And that, for me, has by now become routine. Thank you for that, and have a good day, everyone.

Wonderful, thank you so much. Nicely summarised, and underlined again. I especially think, and that was an aspect we touched on today too, it’s worth reinforcing that it’s important to keep having these sequences of reflection, of renewed reflection, at certain points in time, to check certain things again and adjust if needed, so the routine doesn’t degenerate into rigid rules, but keeps being looked at. And sometimes you stick with a decision you’ve made, because there are good reasons for it. And sometimes it’s necessary to say, let’s try something different, something new, to reflect again and decide how we weave that into the whole structure we’ve grown fond of, in quotation marks, for orientation, security, finding our way, and also things like keeping roughly to 60 minutes. So, wonderful, thank you so much. Tomorrow we continue with an expert talk, with Michael Mayer — I’m really looking forward to that. He’s known to us as “the etiquette guy,” so to speak. And we’ll talk about acting and self-development. I invited him because, given his experience both from the etiquette world and from a lot of experience in companies, trainings and so on, what does acting and self-development actually mean, looked at in combination? The subtitle is, what influence does self-development have on acting? And we want to shape tomorrow’s room around various terms and perspectives on that. The first roughly half hour will be structured as always, with our interview first, and then you’ll have the chance to join afterward too, step into the exchange, and either formulate questions or add your own impulses and thoughts. And on Sunday, as I’ve already announced a few times this week, we have the digital campfire with Action 2, unfiltered stories at the digital campfire. I’ll pick up a few aspects from my own perspective there first, specifically around Elon Musk and X Spaces, or X. I’m genuinely curious about that. We have this point that we’re testing on X, or X Spaces specifically, this week, and we can use Sunday’s room to reflect and review together, against the backdrop that we also want to make decisions, or I want to make decisions, for the Deep Talk Club, about how we continue — whether we stay on Clubhouse, switch elsewhere, whether X Spaces is actually the alternative or not. That’s one thing. And the other is, against that backdrop, I’d also like to pick up the discussions around Elon Musk, X, and X Spaces, because I think I want to open up some different, or more nuanced, perspectives there too — we’ve had various rooms in the past about media and the steering that happens there, and I’d like to, on one hand, possibly neutralise some of that, and on the other, even discuss with you which positive functions certain things might actually have too, and step into exchange with you on that. So, from my own personal perspective, I think a genuinely, genuinely fascinating weekend awaits us. And I’d be really happy if you have the time and inclination to join both tomorrow and the day after, at 8am. With that, I hope to hear from you tomorrow and the day after too. And otherwise, I wish you a wonderful weekend.