#813 Insight & Understanding

Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: What role does true understanding play in gaining insight? That’s the question we explored in Room #813 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme of “Insight.” Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…

Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.

A very good morning to you all. You may have noticed there were a few small adjustments, changes. Sometimes it’s not so easy to decide — it went back and forth a few times. I think I’d announced yesterday that we’d be doing insight and openness as the topic today. But I’ve switched it up again at short notice, in the order too. And accordingly, because I just find it more fitting in terms of content, if we do it the other way around, today we’re going with, or starting with, or looking into the topic of insight and gaining true understanding, under our overarching theme of insight and gaining insight, and we’ll then continue tomorrow with the topic of insight and openness. And I also have a “surprise” with me for later, which I’ll share in the room right at 9am, so that anyone who might join a bit later also gets to hear it. So it might be that we finish a few minutes, maybe just after 9, later than usual today. Just a heads-up on that. That means it’s definitely worth staying until the end, because it’s a small, or big, depending on how you rate it, Good Friday surprise for you. Right. And with that, let’s get going for today. Insight and true understanding. What role does true understanding actually play in insight and gaining insight? That’s what I’d like to reflect on and talk about with you today. There are various insights we gain because something happens that, in a way, leads to a moment of true understanding. But how do we actually get there — what role does it play, and how do we actually manage to arrive at this true understanding? And can that even be steered from outside, or does it have to come from within ourselves? On that last question, I can tie into something we’ve picked up more often in the past too, namely: you can’t change the other person. Whenever we have those moments where we might be annoyed, where we’d wish things were different, we very often experience that we tend to want to change the other person, and don’t get anywhere with that. And that can be frustrating again and again. And it’s worth remembering here, again and again: we can’t change the other person. We can maybe set impulses. We had the aspect of inspiration, which can have some effect on the other person, which can lead to something changing. But we don’t know what lands with the other person, nor to what extent the other person changes, or whether they change at all. It’s similar to the horse. You can’t pull the horse, you have to let it come to you. And at that point it becomes interesting to look more closely at this aspect of true understanding. Because what does true understanding even mean? And do we always need true understanding for this insight, or gaining insight? Are there maybe alternatives? If there’s no alternative, how exactly can this true understanding be achieved? And here we can of course also look at ourselves a bit, at our own history — what moments led to me actually gaining a true understanding in some context where I might have held a completely different opinion before, in whatever form, correcting my opinion, for example, changing it, or it having some other lasting effect. And that’s exactly what we want to talk about today. And again, for anyone who might have come in a bit later, a quick reminder: I’ve brought a surprise for you today for Good Friday. And so that as many of you as possible are in the room when I announce it later, I’ve decided to do it at 9am, so we might finish a few minutes, one, two, three, five minutes, whatever it turns out to be, after nine today, so that toward the end of the room, in connection with the closing round, I can announce the surprise I’ve brought for you for Good Friday. So, you’re all warmly invited to join and step into the exchange. For anyone joining for the first time today, another quick reminder: the room is being recorded, and the recording, as well as a transcription of it, will be published afterward, so please only join if you’re okay with that. Those who don’t want that are welcome to use the chat. And we have three small rules for the room too, to make sure these are serious contributions and not Clubhouse trolls: a profile photo where you’re clearly recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. And right, let me just check — it doesn’t seem to be working technically right now, even though I’ve just tried to bring in the first hand-raise. Let me try again. One moment, let’s see if it works. Yes, wonderful, it worked now. A very good morning, dear Layla.

A very good morning, dear Yasemin. I was just thinking about what you wish someone on Good Friday. Yes, I think a peaceful Good Friday, since the dancing ban is still in effect, because today is actually a day of mourning in Christianity, so yes, I wish you a peaceful Good Friday and a very good morning to you too.

Thank you so much. I wish you the same. What are your thoughts on the topic of insight and true understanding?

My thoughts are — you actually set off some impulses there that triggered something in me. You talked about not being able to change the other person. That’s a really big realization, but one that keeps coming back to you again and again — well, I’ll speak for myself here, everyone can decide for themselves whether this applies to them or not. That used to frustrate me a lot. I don’t even want to say it annoyed me — it probably did annoy me now and then too, but above all it frustrated me, because I thought, but I’m trying so hard, I’m really making an effort. And we’d talked about how truth also has something to do with perception, and in my perception, and certainly in the other person’s perception too, it always felt like you had the feeling of doing the right thing. And it was a really big realization that you can’t change that. But I also had to think of systemic therapy. I don’t know if you know that, systemic constellations. Maybe Yasemin can say more about that later. There are family constellations, you can set up feelings, you can set up situations. What’s quite interesting is that there are a few people in the room, there’s a facilitator. Either you have a brief conversation beforehand or you don’t. And what’s really, really interesting, what always amazed me, was that no matter what situation I experienced there, and I don’t know if this is also done in coaching, but I think it can be — what I found really amazing was that people could actually say a lot about the situation. That they could say, yes, this person feels this way or that way. Because you’re assigned, you’re now a representative for my father. You’re now a representative for this feeling. I also know from people who have multiple sclerosis that you can set up illnesses too, or set up feelings. And then in systemic therapy it’s said that, well, if you change yourself, the system changes too. That reminds me of what you said, that things also keep working on you afterward. And I think we have very little patience with ourselves and with the other person. That’s also a realization I’ve gained over the course of my life. And I’ve come to notice for myself that this takes time too. It’s like ordering something from the universe — I’d like to have this and that. Okay, now I’ve ordered it, but I haven’t won the lottery yet. Oh right, but I also haven’t played the lottery yet, so I can’t win it. And to wrap this up briefly — my realization is that if I change something in the system, meaning myself, the system changes. Whether that’s in my favor, I don’t know exactly, but I’ve had a lot of success with it, and now I’m curious what you think about it.

Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. There were already a lot of aspects in there. And yes, briefly on the systemic approach — the systemic approach traces back to Niklas Luhmann. It’s highly complex if you get into the theory or the background of it. And if you’re interested in the topic, I’d recommend the Author Breakfast we had with Mark Poppenborg — I actually asked him this exact question, because they work very, very heavily with this systemic approach when they go into companies. And I think he explained it wonderfully. That was in one of the Author Breakfasts, so feel free to listen back to that if you’re interested, so it doesn’t take up too much space here this morning. You can definitely check that out again. Mark Poppenborg talked about it. And in terms of the approach, this systems theory has flowed into various different approaches, this thought, this original thought from Niklas Luhmann. Basically, you assume that in any interaction that takes place, you can look at the systems we find ourselves in. And systems can be, for example, well, the family is a system, the various people in it and the interaction that takes place between them. A team is a system, and then a department is again its own self-contained team. A company is also a system made up of various subsystems, so to speak, and interaction between the parties involved keeps taking place. And the moment certain changes occur — for example, when a new team member joins a team because someone got a new position — something happens in that team. That means, at that moment, shifts take place and something changes in the interaction. For example, new roles are taken on, a process of finding your place happens, maybe there are conflicts or similar. And here it really does make sense to look at that. And there are various approaches that work with this. There’s both systemic coaching and therapy with the systemic approach, the family constellations that are done here. Some of you might have had experience with that too. And in coaching too, many different methods are used that bring exactly this systemic view into focus. Especially when it comes to conflicts, for example, it’s worth looking more closely at these systems. So, really, really exciting here. Yes, thank you, dear Layla, for that. And one of the questions that came up for me is, well, how do we actually generate this true understanding ourselves? You said that just this “I can’t change the other person” was a valuable realization. And I’d be interested to know how you generated that realization — did it come, so to speak, through repetition, because frustration kept coming up again and again, or was it maybe something else that acted as the impulse leading to understanding, in inverted commas, maybe it’s about understanding, that ultimately brings about this true realization. And while you’re maybe still thinking about it a bit, and maybe there’s a cross-connection from Vera on this too, I’d like to bring in Vera’s thoughts first. A very good morning, dear Vera, what do you have to say about the topic?

Yes, good morning. So I read, or heard, the topic this morning and immediately had to think of the collapse of the GDR. People got access to their files and gained insight, and I’ll just put it simply, into who had spied on them and what had gone on, and thereby arrived at an understanding, so to speak, about a part of the life they’d had. That was my immediate thought, because I think insight is actually both things there — access to the files, and insight for oneself into the situation, I’d say.

Yes, a nice historical example there too. Thank you so much. So access to files in the sense of getting a look into something, so to speak, and on the other hand, insight in the sense of — is it then understanding? What is it actually in that context? I don’t know what other term you could use for it. Vera, does one come to mind spontaneously for you — for this second kind of insight you just talked about, gaining insight through recognizing, through getting a look at something, how could we call that?

No specific term comes to mind for me either, because I find it’s a bit of a hybrid thing — I might get the insight from within myself, where I think, okay. But then it’s already the realization again too. So somehow insight is linked to realization, in terms of the term itself, in terms of the actual act.

Yes, thank you so much. And interestingly, this aspect of impulse or inspiration, which we also talked about yesterday, is present here too, in inverted commas. That means basically, yesterday, or the day before — the day before, I think — it was basically also the case that an impulse gets set from outside, so to speak. In this case, it’s the access to the file. That means I had no access to it before, and the moment I gain access, I can derive certain insights from that for myself, in whatever form, because I’ve received an impulse again here too, which is basically set from outside. Layla, would you like to add to that?

Yes, very gladly. First, a film immediately came to mind, one you probably already know — it’s called “The Lives of Others.” It’s also about this surveillance in the GDR. I haven’t seen it yet, unfortunately, but I believe it got very good reviews and is worth watching. On your point, I was just thinking, wait a moment. We’d talked about recognizing and insight. Then I thought, when does recognizing become insight? And then I thought, well, you need true understanding for that. But then I thought, is understanding enough on its own? Or does it only become insight once repetition and action are added? And that’s what I’d personally say. But I believe insights are something different for everyone, and now we’re back at “truth has something to do with perception.” And yes, I’d really invite everyone to decide that for themselves. Now, to your question about how I arrived at this understanding, that you can’t change the other person, whether that’s connected to frustration or other things — oh, I’d love to say that at some point I just got up one morning and it was like with a monk or some other wise person you might know, and suddenly this understanding came to me and my life became easy. Unfortunately that’s not how it was — of course it’s connected with frustration too. And that brings us back to the topic of “crisis as opportunity,” if you can still see the forest for the trees in that moment. But it was also connected with something positive, because maybe everyone knows this a bit — when you change, the system changes, and you might not notice it right away. You notice it in little things, that you might not really have an eye for in that moment. But I have to say, right now for example, I place a lot of value on my family. I called my mother directly this morning too. And family systems — family is wonderful, and family isn’t always easy. But that doesn’t mean it’s not beautiful. That’s also a realization I’ve gained. And that’s why, for example, I decided this morning to make my mother happy, because I bought her a glasses case. Because the last time I was there, my mother kept losing her glasses case. And I thought, oh no, oh no, oh no. And now I’ve bought her a particularly beautiful glasses case. And my mother loves birds and fish, and there are some on it now. And I thought, I do what I can. And to come back to the topic — the more you change in a certain direction, the more openness you might have to also notice that your environment is changing. Because you become more open to these impulses. It’s like walking through the forest for the first time — you might not notice anything yet. But if you walk through the forest for the tenth time, you might notice a tree you’d never seen before. Or you see that it’s spring and the first flowers are blooming. And I know this sounds very dramatic, but it’s true. And that’s why it’s a mix of frustration and, not necessarily a Buddhist approach, but definitely an approach that requires patience, and then at some point has a certain lightness to it too. I hope I’ve answered your question.

Yes, wonderful. Thank you so much. And there’s something really important in there too — this thought, I can’t change the other person, but I can change myself. And by changing myself, I also change the system. I’d said earlier that every disruption, every change that occurs, so to speak, causes shifts in the system. If the system, in this case, is the family, for example — because I arrive at an understanding for myself personally, in one place or another, and change things for myself personally, that then also has a certain effect on my environment, in this case the family, because I, for example, act differently, behave differently, or similar. And that then also creates a “resonance,” in inverted commas, in the form of the other person’s reaction, even without us maybe having talked about certain topics on the content level at all. If I reinforce the whole thing by addressing certain things too, that can have an additional effect. Although, and here we’re back to the point that I don’t know what changes and in what form something changes. But I can say with certainty that at least something will change, and that’s a really exciting phenomenon when you look at it more closely. And it’s really exciting. It’s often not the case that we wake up one morning and have suddenly become wise about some particular point, that we have an epiphany and then have an insight. That means repetition, in some context, can play an important role. Nonetheless, there’s definitely both. We already have, even without a certain repetition possibly being involved, situations where a key term, a keyword, an act, or something else, so something from outside, can contribute, like an impulse, so to speak, contribute to it landing with us and leading to an insight. And on the other hand, there might also be things where I keep noticing something, observing it, and over time, through certain repetitions that happen, maybe first arrive at a kind of realization — somehow nothing’s changing, no matter what I do or how I do it or approach it, I can’t manage to change the other person. Then we’ve addressed this frustration, and then various other impulses can lead me to maybe try something different one time or another, and see what comes of it. So definitely also this trying-out aspect included, and through the results I achieve, then again, so to speak, gaining insight and generating understanding. And understanding, and that’s the next point I’d like to bring up, we’d talked about insight being a kind of snapshot, and now I’d be curious — isn’t true understanding also a kind of snapshot? Something lands with me that leads me to feel like I’ve had a kind of aha moment, you could describe it that way, but it can also change. We said that insight per se can also shift and change. So it stands to reason that true understanding too, in whatever context, is also changeable again, or only represents a snapshot. And we can gladly go into that in a moment too, maybe with different thoughts you have on it. And I’d like to use the opportunity to bring in Tobias’s perspective from a biblical viewpoint too. I find that really interesting too, especially since it’s Good Friday, to bring faith into this as well. “I am committed to God giving you all courage and strength, and holding you together in his love. May he grant you deep understanding, so that you recognize the full greatness of his mystery. This mystery is Christ. In him are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” I’m curious what you have to say about that, Layla, Vera — would you like to tie into that at any point? Go ahead, Layla.

I once heard, the only thing that’s constant is change, just to start with that. That’s pretty depressing, but maybe not really. And if I listen to Tobias’s chat contribution, I have to say for myself, yes, it also helps me to have a system I can hold onto. I think we humans also love this kind of consistency, to some extent. I like to repeat this again and again — from the cradle to the grave, habits are the only true thing. And that we have something like cornerstones. I’ve also found them in my religion. And I’m an ethics teacher, and I noticed that Mr. Küng once did this project called Weltethos (Global Ethic), and said, well, you can sum up everything a bit in the Golden Rule, no matter which belief system you take. I’ve also heard that the Ten Commandments, at least nine of them — there’s a philosopher, I’d have to look up her name again — said this basically always exists, that you shall not kill, you shall not steal, so at the very least it’s anchored in the culture that you keep to certain regulations and rules. And if you look at religions, I can say as an ethics teacher, well if I take the three big ones, and the three big world religions are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, because they’re the most widespread, I think those are the biggest groups, and for me personally I have to say there are a lot of similarities. And if I look at Islam, I have to say too, that’s helped me, for example, to see it for myself like, well, what is my purpose on earth? What is it I’m supposed to do? Where am I already doing something good? And of course, if you have an illness, like I now have multiple sclerosis, then it’s nice to have this thought. In Islam it’s said, every thorn you prick yourself on, so “Allahu Alam,” meaning God knows. And so, if I say something wrong now, I’m sorry, but every thorn you prick yourself on, that forgives a sin, for example, in Islam. That’s why it’s actually, and this “actually” isn’t meant to be exclusionary, it’s nothing bad, because it’s a worldly thing, and it’s already the case that life is seen as a test. That’s the case in Christianity too. Even though in the Protestant faith there’s this idea of distance from God. I don’t want to give a lecture, that wouldn’t be seen as good. I found a saying for myself, one that Alcoholics Anonymous has, which I think is really good. It’s this “God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.” And I think if you approach it with this mindset, and then have a system for yourself, whether that’s dependent on religion or independent of it — because you can be moral independently of religion too, and you can have a system independently of religion too. You don’t have to be agnostic, believing in a higher power, or atheist, or religious for that. I think any person can do this. And I think that’s a point that could help us, that this system, that I need something to hold onto, an anchor. And that could then generate insights. And the saying, yes, that nothing is constant except change, Yasemin.

Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. And what’s exciting in this context is, even if this might at first seem irritating to some, what does all this have to do with faith or this faith-based approach here? We’re basically talking about insight and true understanding. I’d like to build a wonderful bridge here, because so much of what we do today, and who or what we follow, has its origin in faith, originally in the context of religion. And faith has played a role for humanity, historically, for a very, very long time. And even if some of you might feel, in inverted commas, that this has been neutralized in various places, or that we differentiate it — we have laws and so on — we’ll keep finding, if we look more closely, that things like, you also brought up the terms morality and ethics — we get very quickly to our values, and those keep tracing back to faith, so to speak. And faith is either connected to a religion, or to something else we believe in. Ultimately it’s about faith itself, in and of itself. And the term faith in this context is really, really essential, because then we’re very quickly at core beliefs too. And with that we get very quickly back to the terms insight and understanding too. That means it has a lot to do with our, we talked about how if we change something in ourselves, for example, the system also changes in some form, even if we don’t know exactly in what form and to what extent it’ll change. And then we can observe what happens. And that ultimately means that core beliefs play a role here too. Because, for example, to change myself, or to change my actions and activities, that also has something to do with what core beliefs I have in the background, whether it’s possible for me to arrive at a certain understanding for myself, that I can only change myself and not the outside, but that, for example, by changing myself or changing my behavior, I do have an effect on the outside, so to speak. And we’re very quickly at core beliefs there. And it’s no coincidence that the word “belief” is contained in the term “core belief” too. And depending on what I believe and what I hold onto, or at what point I’m also willing to let go of certain things, not just hold on but also let go, that’s where I get closer to understanding, and through that also closer to insight. What do you say to that, Vera, Layla? What are your thoughts on that? Go ahead, Vera.

Gladly. I wanted to go back to something related to that. Insight, spontaneous or momentary. I think it’s both. An insight can come spontaneously, based on something someone else says or something I’m reading, that I have, so to speak, an aha moment in that instant. But it can of course also be a longer process, that I then arrive at an understanding of something. And regarding “do I change myself, does the environment change” — if I’m someone, for example, who’s always been perceived a certain way and behaved accordingly, that I go along with everything and let everything happen to me, in inverted commas, and at some point I stand up and say, no, I don’t want it this way, then the others get a new understanding of me as a person too, and that’s when the changes start. On one hand maybe with the others, if I’m lucky, but above all my own perception changes too. And regarding faith — it’s simply present in every form, right in the middle of our lives, for thousands of years. And I’m going to sign off now, wish you all a nice day, because I have to go to work.

Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, dear Vera, we wish you the same. Layla, would you like to tie into that?

Yes, I was just thinking, because there were various impulses now that I need to sort out a bit. So, you’d talked at one point, Yasemin, about an insight I gained in my life — there were two approaches there. There was a coach who once told me, well, you can change core beliefs. That you think about whether it’s important, what it does for you, and so on. I can’t formulate those three questions anymore. That wasn’t insightful for me in the sense that I’d learned at some point that, when people get into these basic situations, and you’d also said this before, whether it’s an existential crisis or some kind of emergency situation, that you fall back into your old patterns. And those are learned patterns. And then, thanks again for the tip, “Games People Play,” which I’m actually working through right now. And I thought about it, well, either that’s my Parent ego state speaking right now, that’s how I learned it, or it’s my inner child. That’s also a phrase that’s used, though it’s probably used differently in psychology. And that I orient myself by that to some extent. And then I realized for myself, I think you can overwrite it. But I like your term “overlay” better, because I think that’s actually it — that you overlay it with other things that are then positive. And that brings us back to the topic of repetition, because if that keeps happening, that I overlay it positively, then I think that a development can take place, or an unfolding, so personal development, personal unfolding. I’d have a follow-up question there — what do I do when I fall back into that old pattern? I can only go into reflection there, which doesn’t always work for me. And that’s also used, for example — there’s this book “Reading People,” I think it’s Joe Navarro, wasn’t he a profiler, though I don’t think that term really exists — how do you analyze people, for example, by which way someone’s feet are pointing? So I can have learned all the rules in the world, I can disguise myself as much as I want, but apparently it’s the case that if my feet are pointing away from me, even though I also know that crossing your arms doesn’t necessarily mean anything — it could also just be that I’m bracing and protecting myself — but it might mean I want to get out of this conversation. And my question about that would be, I can overlay it, but if I overlay it and then I’m in an existential crisis, or an emergency situation, or a surprising situation, wouldn’t it come back again? Then I’d be thrown back to it again. And what Vera said, I found really exciting too, because there’s this saying, you can’t make a first impression twice, but somehow you kind of can, right? Because that’s also this thing — when I start setting boundaries, when I’ve always learned a certain approach, love through achievement, when I’ve had a lot to do with devaluation, or learned certain patterns, I have to sacrifice myself for other people to prove my worth, or, I don’t know, modesty forbids me from praising myself. So pick any core belief you like and think about what that does to you. But I’m totally with Vera on this, because I think that, from my point of view too, the system can change, and it can really be that way. Maybe it’s a slow change, and maybe that’s not nice for the others. Yes, but maybe it’s nice for me, and maybe it’s something positive for me, and maybe I need patience for that too. That brings me back to my religion, for example, but I’m sure I’m also at the Sermon on the Mount and Christianity, which is also very fitting today. Thanks for listening.

Yes, thank you so much. There were a lot of aspects in there too, I need to sort through those a bit for myself now too. On the question of how you deal with it when you fall back, for example, into old behavior, another recommendation or note here, for those who might have missed it: Dr. Axel Koch, with his book “Logbuch Gewohnheiten nachhaltig verändern” (German only), on the technique of relapse management, was with us at the Author Breakfast — do listen back to that, because it’s exactly about this aspect. It’s also about resolutions, for example, that I might want to tackle at New Year’s or otherwise during the year, and keep noticing, I do want to change something, but somehow I don’t manage it, I keep falling back into old habits, in inverted commas. And in that context, he talked about how, if you look at it from the research side and analyze the whole thing, it becomes clear that there are certain early warning signs, so to speak, that already signal or make it clear that this can happen, even before it actually results in the old behavior — so before that, the warning signs are already there, so to speak, like on a highway, where before I take the exit, I already see certain signs telling me how far it is to the exit. And if I don’t only realize and perceive that, in inverted commas, once I’m at the exit — and that exit is, for example, the stress situation in which I then relapse, in inverted commas — but I’m able to look specifically at the early warning signs beforehand. And that works relatively well if I just look back and check — how is it, really? So again going into this self-reflection, self-observation. Especially when it’s recurring aspects, I can look relatively well, through self-observation and reflection, at what signals or early warning signs there actually are, which basically already give me very clear signs. And then, in a future situation, when the early warning signs appear as a signal, I can, through this shift in focus that’s taken place, respond and deal with it accordingly, and maybe “outmaneuver” one thing or another this way, in inverted commas, prevent it, whatever you want to call it. So do listen back to that. That’s the Author Breakfast, we had two with Axel Koch. This is the first one. That was actually the anniversary episode for the Deep Talk Club’s two-year anniversary — “Logbuch Gewohnheiten nachhaltig verändern” is the book. We talked about that in that context. It’s really, really exciting, you can take away quite a lot for yourself from it. And also, if you were at the Author Breakfast, it’s often the case that when you listen back to it later, after other topics have been picked up again too, other things might become audible to you that you overheard the first time, so to speak. And that’s where we’re at synapses, and where we currently stand. And that’s the exciting thing. And you can see right now, quite clearly, that all these topics are intertwined with each other. That means, even as we keep progressing content-wise with the topics we cover, we keep making cross-connections to topics we’ve dealt with before, to Author Breakfasts, to expert talks we’ve had. And so it makes sense to go back into the recordings again and again, with a certain distance, so to speak, and listen to them. And that’s similar to my bookshelf, which I’ve talked about before — there are books on it, and when I look into them again years later, I sometimes feel like it’s a new edition. But it’s not a new edition — I’ve changed. And because I’ve changed, I suddenly recognize or discover things in it that haven’t changed in print — it’s exactly the same book that’s on the shelf. But because I’ve changed, and new synapses have formed, because I might be in a different phase of life, etc., I now have the chance to look at various topics or thoughts I have in a completely different way, and suddenly discover things that were already there before, but that I hadn’t seen or perceived for myself. And also the realization, at the same time, that next time, when I look at it again with a certain distance, I’ll generate new insights for myself again too, because I know the same phenomenon will apply again. And regarding true understanding — how do we basically arrive at that — I’d like to pick up another aspect, one we’ve also talked about in the past, and it fits wonderfully here too, namely, it’s often the case that we start thinking about something, for example. So insight doesn’t just come flying in out of nowhere — it’s often the case that something gets us thinking, for example. We pick up on some term, some impulse or whatever, and start to mull it over in some form. And this thinking leads to certain processes of analysis and reflection taking place, that we might engage with various questions and similar, and that then also opens up the possibility of generating an insight. And in that context, we’ve talked in the past about the role or significance of questions too. That means one of the key features that can be used, for example, to create irritation, break patterns, and so on, are the questions that get used. And whenever, and this is an approach coaching also works with very, very strongly, instead of giving any kind of directive, formulating questions. Whenever I work with questions, and the higher quality the questions are, the higher quality the answers can turn out to be for each individual, for themselves individually. And there too we don’t know what answers will be found. But a thinking process gets triggered, so to speak, and this thinking process will, with high probability, lead to some kind of insights and understandings too, whatever they may be and in whatever form. And that’s why this aspect of questions plays an important role too. And if I look at my own past, at this point, I personally keep noticing, and you can check this for yourselves too, that whenever mentors, coaches, professors, whoever, in my environment have asked questions, I’ve arrived at my personal biggest insights, and thereby also at gaining or generating understanding. Layla, would you like to say something about that?

I really had to smile just now, Yasemin, because since 2018, I had a burnout, and I’m not ashamed of that — I think it’s also an important insight to accept that some things in life just happen, and that you might have a part in it too. That means, you’re half a victim, and half part of the problem too. And that’s when I started engaging with the topic of mindfulness, which personally was very, very hard for me, because I’m very fast. People sometimes tell me, Layla, you’re hectic. And then I say, I’m not hectic, I’m fast. And I always used to be very, very proud of that, Yasemin, because it enables me to do a lot of things in a short amount of time. I gained the insight into part of the reason for that, since I self-diagnosed myself with ADHD last year, which was actually confirmed too. And here too, one method is mindfulness, and that also has a lot to do with religion. What is prayer? Prayer is a kind of meditation. It’s a focusing on a certain thought. It’s a focusing on God. And what do you do when meditating? To my knowledge, you tune things out and simply try to be in the here and now. And that always was very hard for me. And I never understood the point of it either. At some point I managed it. I actually did qigong, I meditated, yes, even now. So actually, to name it again, I’m grateful for my illness in the sense that it led me to my religion, which, as I just said, also has something to do with mindfulness at certain points. And that really does help with the topic of ADHD too. And the reason I smiled so much was because I thought, you once said grass doesn’t grow faster if you pull on it. And I don’t think insight is generated any faster if I push the other person. And we like to do that sometimes — you have to understand this, thinking of core beliefs we have from our parents. So you know how it is. You’ll see what happens. And yes, I think we can’t push the other person toward insight. We can really only invite them to it. That’s also what I always say when someone asks me, who’s ethics class for — I always say, for people who like to think. And to come back to myself — speed is really nice, and that’s something positive for me personally. And still, I’m currently confronted with the topic of mindfulness again, also regarding ADHD, because it’s helpful. And even though it’s hard for me, I think it’s important. And you’ve had a few Author Breakfasts on this too, because I was just thinking internally, well, the only thing it brings me right now, if I think about, you’ll have to say the name again with the logbook, habit logbook, because I’ll look into that too and gladly download it, because I think it’s just important, because the only thing that apparently protects you from it is mindfulness, and going into this looking-back, or going into this slowness, in order to recognize the signs. Because if I’m too fast, I don’t recognize them, and if I don’t recognize them, then I might get stuck, or stay stuck, in my behavior pattern. And of course that’s something nice, and of course we want to stay the way we are. And I won’t change myself for other people, because I’ve already tried that, changing myself for other people. And being like the others, that doesn’t work for me. Still, I have to find my own way here, and go into mindfulness there too, no matter how I do it, whether through prayer, whether through meditation exercises, through balance exercises, because that was something else I wanted to mention, because I think what all systems really have in common, whether I’m ordering something from the universe or somewhere else, or whether I’m within a belief system, or talking about resonance, I always recognize a lot of similarities there. And I always find that really, really interesting. Yes, that’s what I wanted to say. Thanks for listening.

Yes, wonderful. Thank you so much. Yes, so I’d like to come back to the Author Breakfasts again. We’ve picked up two today. The first, regarding systems theory — there are explanations there, also the approach that Mark Poppenborg and his partner work with. The book was called “Wir führen anders: 24 1/2 befreiende Impulse für Manager. Moderne Führung für wirksame Organisationsentwicklung und mehr Mitarbeitermotivation” (German only), in brackets, “Future Leadership.” That was a while back now, that was on July 10th, and it would have been published a week later in the podcast. And the second one, with the logbook, that’s by Dr. Axel Koch. He was on the show twice too, and that was the anniversary episode for the Deep Talk Club’s two-year anniversary. You can check that out too — not the last time he was here recently with “Change mich am Arsch” (German only), but the Author Breakfast before that. And since the question came up in the chat again too, another reminder: you can find the Deep Talk Club podcast on basically all the various podcast channels. It’s really spread everywhere — it doesn’t matter whether you check Amazon, we’ve also put it up as a YouTube channel, we have it on Spotify and so on. That’s why it’s difficult to always give out a single link. Depending on what you prefer, you have the option to go to whichever podcast channel you like and listen to it there. We’ve shared various links, one via LinkedIn, if you look at the company pages there, the new episodes are always announced, and the links don’t change — they always lead to the various channels that are most commonly used. There are a few links there. You can also find these links under deeptalkclub.com, so to speak. There you have the option to listen to both expert interviews, talks, and Author Breakfasts. A few are highlighted, as examples to listen to. You’ll find all the episodes, all of them, in the podcast accordingly. So here too, feel free to check the Deep Talk page or LinkedIn under my profile — you’ll find things there too. Just wanted to mention that on the side. And yes, wonderful. So basically we have about five minutes left. I’d like to move into today’s closing round now and use the last five minutes for that. And then I’d like to — I promised you at the start of the room that I’d share a surprise with you at 9am, as a special for today, for Good Friday, so to speak, and I’d like to bring that in here now too. Layla, we’ve talked about so many things, and I’d like to give you the chance in a moment — Vera, I’m not sure, you’re still visible on my display here at least, you might still be listening but maybe can’t speak anymore, since you’d announced you’d be at work shortly. If you can say something, can still speak, for the closing round, give me a quick signal so I can see it. If no signal comes, then I’ll know. There’s no signal coming. So I haven’t excluded anyone, but it’s really because it’s no longer possible for you. Okay, wonderful. Layla, if you look back over what we talked about today, the various examples that came up, chat contributions, and so on, what are your insights or understandings from the room today?

My insights and understandings from the room today — I’ll gain another one right now too, because it’s always the question of how people deal with compliments. Yasemin, let me give you a sincere compliment. I just opened the link to this page and thought, oh gosh, Yasemin, she’s really a beautiful woman. I’d already noticed that in the other photo. But there you actually are, it’s a portrait shot. So, I’m going to gain the insight now of how you deal with compliments. I personally handle that very badly, and always like to downplay it. I’d personally advise against that — not to you, but to the people in the audience. And I’d like to briefly say, yes, we once had a similar hairstyle, so an insight has been generated here again too. I once heard, because I love quotes, you might have noticed that by now, that worries are like a rocking chair, they take you back and forth, but they never take you forward. Still, it’s important that you maybe stop for a second, or maybe a bit longer, at that point, to go into mindfulness, to then look at what I actually do with it now. Because thinking is really nice, I noticed that again today too. And it helps with recognizing, it maybe also helps with understanding. And for me, what I’m taking away today is, for me, an insight and an understanding becomes a workable solution when it repeats itself, and when I can not only reflect on it, but also translate it into action, and maybe be a bit gentle with myself there too, and gentle with others. Thanks for listening.

Oh, gentleness, nicely put. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for the compliment too. I gladly accept that and I’m just happy about it. So I think that’s great. Yes, do take the opportunity, really, to use the various channels — whether that’s the website, whether that’s LinkedIn, where a lot gets shared too, whether that’s the newsletter. We have a “Pioneering Spirit with Brain” newsletter, so to speak, you can sign up for that too. You’ll find it via my website yaseminyazan.com. So really, use the various impulses, to keep coming back into self-observation, self-reflection, into mindfulness. And I think it’s wonderful what you formulated, Layla, with this question — we can work with questions on ourselves too, not only with others. Picking up the question and directing it at yourself, or at myself. So now we’ve maybe gained one insight or another, maybe an understanding too. But what do I actually do with it now? And to look at that individually for yourself and think about it, and find your own answers. Not with the claim that it’s right or wrong, but with what fits for me right now, so to speak, and is accessible right now, in the phase I’m in. That always has to do with the various phases we’re going through too, so to speak. That means, maybe today we talked about various topics that land differently with each of you. One person recognizes one thing as insight, or sees one thing as true understanding or insight. Another has a different impulse that gets them thinking. And getting someone thinking, in this context, also means, maybe I haven’t gained any understanding yet at all, but maybe it also sometimes takes a bit of time to think about it, to let it work on you for a while. And that’s what these reflection spaces are for — not with the claim that something is right or wrong, but to set various impulses, to get people thinking, and to initiate a process of change through that, in whatever form, and whatever you make of it is then up to each of you individually. And with that, we’ll continue tomorrow with the topic of insight and openness — I’m really looking forward to that too, because, well, now I have an insight or whatever, but do I always need the insight, or is it also a mindset that this whole thing has to do with, what role do openness and curiosity play for insight and gaining insight, and maybe that fits quite well as a bridge to the surprise I brought for you today too. We actually have the next launch date for the next publication today, in its first form as an ebook. That means, if you enjoy reading ebooks, you’re warmly invited to download “The Magic Hacks for Optimal Use of ChatGPT” (German only) today. You can currently get it exclusively on Amazon, and because it’s Good Friday, it’s set at a launch price, so to speak, that’s only valid today and exclusively today. Afterward the price will go up accordingly, automatically once today is over. And maybe it’s something you can use for yourselves, to approach certain topics with a certain openness too. And this covers the topic of ChatGPT. There’s been a lot of discussion about it in the past, a lot done in this context. But often these are discussions, in inverted commas, that are steered from a negative viewpoint, with worries, with fears and so on, and here it’s about shifting the focus and showing, so to speak, what’s actually possible with ChatGPT. And to back that up and demonstrate it, this book was basically created with the help, also with the help of ChatGPT. That means large parts were contributed by ChatGPT, so this content was also generated via ChatGPT, to demonstrate how it’s possible, and with which questions. That partly involves specific prompts too. We’ve said the quality of the questions also determines the quality of the answers. And interestingly, that’s not just true regarding me, it’s not just true regarding interpersonal communication, but now it’s suddenly about communication between humans and AI. And how that can be shaped, how a textbook can emerge from that, that this is a prime example of how something like that is created, so to speak, with which prompts that can be generated and what the result looks like, so you can experience all of that — that’s how this book project came about, so to speak. I’m really happy to share this with you today, on Good Friday. Take the opportunity to download it, and maybe even browse through it over Easter. And we’ll definitely continue tomorrow with openness and curiosity, and what the relevance is in that context in relation to insight and gaining insight. It’s definitely worth joining again over Easter too, so Saturday, Sunday, Monday, because we not only have great topics, but also more surprises. On Sunday, by the way, we’re expecting another great guest with us for the Author Breakfast. And that’s about the title “Es ist alles schwer, bevor es leicht wird” (German only) — I hope I got that right without reading it off. And here too it’s really exciting, to bring this heaviness and lightness, this true understanding, gaining insight, openness, all these terms, together again, and to look at it from the perspective of Marc Gassert, to look at what that means, what’s behind it. And Monday also has an exciting topic and a nice surprise waiting for you too. With that, I already wish you a happy Easter, however you tune in, listen maybe before breakfast, maybe enjoy a chapter or two in the evening while you’re reading, whatever you’ve planned for Easter. I wish you a whole lot of fun with it, and I’m happy about everyone who joins again tomorrow. With that, until then. Ciao.