Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: How does violent content in video games influence our perception and our behavior? That’s the question we explore in Room #937 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme of “Power & Violence.” Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…
Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.
A very warm good morning to you. Today we continue with violence in video games, and we want to engage with the question of how violent content in video games influences our perception and our behavior. I’m really curious what impulses come up for you, what concrete examples you might bring in, so we can start the reflection room together, pick up and open different aspects, and then see in which direction our room develops today, in the sense of reflection and gaining insight. And very much in that spirit, you’re warmly invited to join in again today and step into the exchange. And for those joining for the first time today, another reminder that the room is recorded the entire time, and anyone who joins automatically agrees that the whole thing will also be published. We have three small room rules: a profile photo where you’re recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence, to make sure these are serious contributions and not Clubhouse trolls. And anyone who doesn’t want that for whatever reason, or can’t speak right now, has the option, as always, to use the chat, and then we can pick up on one thing or another accordingly, whatever hasn’t been picked up yet or hasn’t been answered as a question yet. So I’m curious who’d like to join first this morning, to open up and steer the room in this direction with me on the topic of violence in video games, how violent content in video games influences our perception, our behavior. And while I wait and see who’d like to join today, I’ve also brought a link for you, which I’d like to share at this point already. Maybe briefly as an explanation of the link — I wrote a master’s thesis a while ago as part of a training I did to become an NLP Coach Master at the master’s level, and the question I engaged with there was what the compatibility of NLP formats in online coaching actually looks like. And yes, there are some really important aspects in there from my point of view. On one hand, because in the past many coaches were still very distant regarding online coaching, whether it even works or not. And by now we know that it actually works really, really well, but it partly needs a corresponding adaptation from offline to online, so not meetings where we simply have a one-to-one, purely digital setting. And here it’s specifically about checking which NLP formats are suitable for online coaching or not. And for those who find that interesting, you have the opportunity to order it as an e-book, so to speak, and download it directly to your computer. Exactly, and that’s why I brought the link today. So, violence in video games is the topic. How does violent content in video games influence our perception and our behavior? That’s what we want to talk about today. I’m curious who’d like to open the round with me this morning, and I’ll gladly mute myself now to see who joins first this morning.
Well, dear ones, how’s it looking? I really can’t imagine that none of you has something to say about the topic of violence in video games. You surely have an opinion on it, maybe you’ve had experiences with it yourself, or observations you’ve made, discussions you’ve followed, or similar. So just join in, to start the reflection room. It would be a shame if we just closed the room again in three minutes this morning, especially on a topic where basically, from my point of view, everyone is actually able to speak up too. So I’ll mute myself again and see who’d like to join this morning.
A very warm good morning, dear Sabine.
I just got back from jogging, so I’m a bit out of breath still. One thing spontaneously comes to mind. My son played Fortnite the night before last with a friend. He’d just gotten home, and I thought, could I play a round of Fortnite too? I said, sure, go ahead. And then I watched a bit, and then I said, hey, are you the one character? Yes, he was a woman. His friend was also a woman. I asked, why are you both women? Well, as a woman you often get underestimated. That was one comment I found really interesting. The second thing, then they started playing. And then he says, oh, sorry. I said, what did you just do? He’d accidentally killed him, that was his friend. So, I found that quite something, accidentally killing your friend for a moment. He actually wanted to fight together with them and work as a team. But that just happens sometimes. Then he immediately suggested that the two of them go back out and start together again. So there’s already quite a lot of violence in the game, from what I can see. He’s actually, I’d say, a peace-loving guy, but you can always get him to play a round of Fortnite.
Yes, totally fascinating. Thank you so much. And yes, indeed I personally also find that there can be relatively a lot of violence, violent content, in these games, or depending on what kind of games they are, of course. The question is whether that also has an effect in some form. Question mark. I personally don’t play video games or anything like that. For myself I can’t really judge it. However, in my environment I do have the impression, for example when my husband plays, that it does make him more aggressive, so how quickly he snaps or similar. Whenever it gets too much, in quotation marks, I say, okay, I think we need to dial back the playing again. I don’t know, that’s a very personal experience, very individual, which of course can’t be generalized. But I’d be interested to know if you have similar examples too, or whether it maybe also has to do with the type, so to speak, with the type of person who uses such games too. Maybe there are also people who say, well I play quite regularly, for example, and it has no effect on me at all. For me it’s clearly just a game. And maybe there also needs to be a distinction here between young and old, how do children handle it and so on. All the way to, for example, there are age restrictions and so on. And how does something like that actually affect things? Is it actually the case that these age restrictions accomplish anything at all, in quotation marks? I ask this question because as a parent representative I already notice partly in elementary school what games the kids obviously already know and play, and that no consideration is given here at all to age restrictions or anything like that, but they obviously often get access to it somehow, even without the parents’ awareness. And I find that a really exciting aspect too. And we can look at it from that perspective too.
Sabine, would you like to add to this?
Yes, gladly. So regarding age restrictions, that’s actually not a problem at all in practice. You just make yourself two years older. I’ve seen that with my son too. Regarding aggressiveness, I completely agree with you. He puts on his big speakers, his big headphones, sits there, keeps sliding further onto the edge of his seat, is tense to the max. If I say something in between and then say, stop it now, leave me alone, I’m in the middle of something right now. So I think that does promote aggressiveness. And the bad thing is, if you don’t at some point say, play one game or play two games, or at such and such a time you’re done, then the next round becomes the next round. And it builds up, so that the aggressiveness, or the whole — I can’t say aggressiveness exactly, but the state he’s in gets stronger and stronger. I myself also don’t play video games, except e-tennis, and there too I have to say, I encounter people from all over the world, though it’s encrypted, you can’t see it, you can only tell from the characters or so, probably a flag attached at the end, and I have to say, I just play it to finish it. But many come with emojis that are a bit provocative and I don’t know. That makes me a bit aggressive too, and then I think, what’s that supposed to mean? So I think, through the anonymity in which it’s played, it’s much easier to become aggressive. Because if I were standing in front of that person and said to them, what was that, I don’t know if I’d necessarily do that. But the moment I’m in the game…
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and you just made a nice point, you just make yourself two years older or so, that’s relatively easy to gain access, even though the age restriction is fundamentally there in principle. That means there’s also, to some extent, a responsibility of parents or caregivers playing a really essential role here, but the question always is, up to what point can you even monitor that, in quotation marks. Ulla wrote in the chat that when she played Monhoon on the PC for a while, it increased her reaction speed. And that’s definitely something like reaction speed etc. So there are definitely components in such games that might also be beneficial. So the question is whether video games with violence, in quotation marks, only bring negative aspects with them per se, or whether there are also positive aspects one can or must consider, or does one have to “differentiate”? There are also video games where there might be no violent content at all. Should one, if you look at it from an evaluative perspective, so to speak, then think in that direction and use those, or which aspects speak in favor of video games that might also have violent content? Maybe there are also positive parts of it we can look at. So the question would be, on one hand, how is violence actually depicted in different video games? So we’ve just heard something like shooting and so on, and people quickly shot each other, even accidentally. Shooting, I think there it’s relatively obvious that this is violent content at first. The question is, what other kinds of video games are there, and in what form does violence or violence-rich content express itself, maybe also in video games where it’s not so obvious because there’s no shooting, just as an example. Then to look at what influence it has on the players. Is there any indication that the depiction of violence in video games influences the behavior or attitude of players? We’ve already touched on that a bit. Then also to look at age ratings and control, we’ve already touched on that a bit too. The question is, is there actually censorship and regulation. Do we have examples where violent video games have maybe already been regulated in the past, that it’s somehow banned, maybe even country-specific. And here you can also look at what arguments there are for or against. All the way to social and cultural aspects. How is that maybe perceived in different cultures and societies at all. Are there differences in how violent content in video games is assessed, in quotation marks, against the background of the culture someone moves in. So there are really, really many aspects we can look at, where we can open up different perspectives, and so I’d like to warmly invite everyone to join in here too, to open up further perspectives and make the dialogue between Sabine and me, so to speak, more multifaceted here too. Please note, another reminder, that the room is recorded the entire time, and anyone who joins automatically agrees that the whole thing gets published later. And we have three small room rules, a profile photo where you’re recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. And anyone who doesn’t want that for whatever reason, or can’t speak right now, is warmly invited to bring in thoughts or questions via the chat too.
Sabine, would you like to add to one of the points too, or did that trigger any further impulse for you?
Yes, I agree with Ulla. I also still play Sudoku, that didn’t occur to me earlier, but I hadn’t really seen Sudoku as a video game, because of course combinatorics is required there, and I find that a good thing if I want to switch off for a bit in between. But that’s also a maximum of about five minutes, and I’m not playing against anyone. And I think that’s a really big point. If I’m doing something for myself here, then maybe the topic of aggressiveness is a different matter. Of course I want to reach the goal there. It could be that I’m aggressive, and I demand this of myself, that I don’t hurt anyone else. Whether that’s psychologically or with emojis or so, or with violence, with weapons. And I think that makes a big difference. Otherwise I’m unfortunately not the video game pro. From that side I only see that in the newer games, when I look over someone’s shoulder sometimes, it’s all very digital, very spatial. The characters played with are very powerful, very… So, you can’t even recognize anyone anymore. And they have weapons on every hand and on every belt. And then they pull out something else too. So, it’s very, very oversized. It’s not even that one has a firearm against the other anymore, there are landmines too. It’s actually almost impossible to imagine anymore where the violence even comes from.
Yes, thank you so much. I’m no expert either, against the background that I myself don’t play any games at all, absolutely none, not a single one, so to speak. Many years ago I recognized for myself that it kept pulling me in further and further, and I personally decided that it’s not my thing and not what I want. That’s why I cut it out completely, and I don’t watch a single game, because I have no desire for that. Similar to, not to badmouth it or anything, everyone has to decide that for themselves and find individual solutions, similar to how I also don’t watch a lot of series on TV or Netflix or something, because I know exactly that I’d then have the feeling I have to keep watching, and it often ends with a whole weekend being gone because of it. And so this situation never even arises, because I’m somehow not disciplined enough there, I’m too curious to keep going, so I’ve completely cut that out for myself personally. So I’d definitely be happy if we had more people in the round who’ve maybe already tried out different games, who bring experience with them here. And a point I’d like to open up further is also, in the past it was more the case that we had everything displayed in 2D. You can surely still remember, in the early times, let’s say, you’d look at the TV or the screen, but you still perceived the space outside. By now we’re at the point where VR headsets and things like that are used, where you really do dive completely into this world, and for the time, or during the time you’re playing, you no longer perceive the outside world or the actual world you’re in spatially at all anymore. And I could imagine that this also makes a really essential difference with games at this point. Maybe someone would like to add to that too and say something about it.
Sabine, I don’t know if you can or want to say something about that.
Yes, certainly. You’re completely integrated into that. And that’s what I said earlier. This 3D track, or this digital thing, it already feels a bit like the metaverse. Only that at the moment it’s not the person themselves yet, but still an avatar you can give yourself. But they dress themselves too, they disguise themselves and so on. They already turn themselves into their own character there. What you said earlier about the funnel, or getting pulled in, I found that really, really interesting. That happened to me with this e-tennis too. Which really is… you come in, you have to reach a certain goal to get to the next level, and suddenly I pressed something else. Suddenly I’d bought something for 1.99. I don’t want to buy anything! So, that’s already… And they start with really small things, then you get rewards for something that doesn’t help you at all. But… oh, you got a reward! And then you’re so close to the second level. So you keep going. I completely agree with you there. So, for myself too, I pick it up twice a day for a round or so, because my affinity for tennis is so big. But what you said, I think that’s a really big problem with all these games, that they’re set up like a funnel and pull you in.
Yes, absolutely. And they often, for example, it’s also the case that you can use free online games, for example. And especially what you said with this reward system, at the beginning you get certain things for free. And then, if you, let’s say, die too often somehow, or fail at one hurdle or another, then at some point you’re supposed to buy certain tools etc. with money accordingly. So really different reward systems and incentives are being worked with here too. So it’s really, really fascinating to look at it from this perspective too.
Stefan, a very warm good morning. I believe you like playing games quite a bit. I’m really curious about your perspective.
Yes, first a very warm good morning, Yasemin and Sabine and everyone else in the room too. Well, generally, I’ve been listening for a while, because I was doing a few things in parallel. And I of course caught one aspect or another, or one situation or another. I of course have a completely different perspective on it. Namely, sure, I play myself, I deal with this. I also professionally deal with the games industry, among other things at least. But I think this is also again an effect of looking more at the negative things than seeing what positive effects video games can bring about. And that list is definitely much longer than what’s negative about video games, in my opinion and also according to many evaluations. Especially if you look at the big evaluations from AOK or Barmer, which are among the largest health insurance providers here in Europe. They’ve conducted really long-term studies, and especially the Barmer study is extremely precisely evaluated over a long period with many experts, and it’s worth taking a look at what positive effects that has, also for family life, yes, and especially for the assessment. What is violence, what is fiction, and how do I deal with it, and how can I avoid stress situations, how can I avoid conflict situations. Of course, if I take a game like GTA, where it’s about, well, GTA 5 now of course, where it’s about leading criminal organizations, so to speak, or causing trouble in the city, then that’s simply a really high fun factor. That has nothing at all to do with acting that way in real life, pulling people out of cars or shooting someone or something. Here it’s really pure fiction, a pure game, which is incredibly fun. Yes, it pulls you in, and like with everything, it’s also always a question of time too. So of course if my child starts controlling that for the first time after, say, eight hours, that’s difficult. Yes, so you shouldn’t necessarily play more than two hours a day. Those are at least recommendations. But reality is different. Yes, above all, we have more than 40 million people, that’s almost half our population, who in some form play video games or smartphone games or other games, so digital games, and this factor, these moments of happiness that can bring about too. Especially also the promotion of spatial thinking. And I mean, we’ve also talked very often about this already, Yasemin, about the positive effect on the economy too, what effects the games industry has brought about, whether that’s the gamification situation used in exams or learning situations in the education sector, where you can choose exactly this speed for how you want to continue this exam or learning process. Like with video games too, where I can usually set whether I start off really easy or whether I start at a normal level, whether I’m already the super pro or the expert. And accordingly, the game is of course then harder. And yes, so I’m jumping back and forth a bit now, maybe so that maybe another argument comes from your side, which I’d be happy to answer. And namely, there are really clear studies that violence in society has nothing at all to do with violence in video games. So people who play first-person shooters or other games where violence is part of the video game element, so where it’s an essential element, there’s absolutely no effect on any social behavior at all.
Yes, thank you so much, and I find that’s exactly the fascinating thing about it. That’s why I asked earlier whether it’s maybe also a question of type, so a type-of-person question, where it might leave one effect or another. And so I find that totally fascinating. I’m also happy that you’re opening up exactly this perspective with these positive aspects, because there are certainly also many positive aspects in this context that should also be considered. Though of course we should also look at whether what you said refers exclusively to video games with violent content, or maybe also quite generally? And regarding the studies you mentioned, because you just talked about Barmer and AOK and things like that, the first impulse I had was, what interest is behind a Barmer or an AOK conducting such studies at all? Maybe we can look at that in a moment, or think about it together. I’d find that a really interesting point too, to look at more closely against the background of interest, because I know that especially in this games industry, many studies either aren’t conducted at all, or results are also often swept under the rug. Against the background that it’s a huge industry that generates a lot, a lot of money here too, and accordingly “negative news,” so to speak, isn’t necessarily always desired. That’s not to say that all the studies that exist in this context are fake or something, but you’d have to look at the balance and what interests are behind it, and what’s being promoted here, what then gets published, and what maybe doesn’t even get published, isn’t even approached, so to speak, at this point, so as not to alarm anyone, in quotation marks.
Let’s gladly bring in Erik first, and then we can gladly make cross-references at that point too. Erik, a very warm good morning.
Yes, good morning. It’s gotten so exciting with Stefan’s contribution just now that I actually don’t want to interrupt at all. But maybe what I wanted to bring in is my own experience. So I currently don’t play, also for quite a while now, almost no computer games or video games at all anymore. But earlier, when the year still started with 19, in the 1900s, toward the end of that, I played a lot, also first-person shooters and the early versions of GTA and things like that. So definitely also violent games, and also happily flight simulations, where for example it was a World War Two scenario, where you shoot each other down or targets down with planes and so on. And that was also fun, and so on. But on the other hand, also in that time or a bit later, when I’ve seen, for example, real depictions of, say, drone strikes, which do exist, these recordings, you actually don’t see much at all. It’s somehow black and white and maybe bad resolution too, and you see something exploding somewhere. But these depictions, for example, are unbearable for me, because I have the knowledge in the background that this is happening in the real world and that people are really dying there. And I also avoid watching things like that, while with these depictions in the computer game where I’m also actively involved, I don’t have that connection, and also not that association, that I’m now — for me it’s basically a skill game, but the hook is of course really a violence scenario. I wanted to bring that in from my own experience.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Sabine, Stefan, would you like to pick up on one thing or another and add to it?
Sabine, I think you just raised your hand.
Yes, gladly. Yes, Stefan, I found what you said really interesting. What came to me as a question is, is there some kind of rating in the games industry, similar to the food industry, of what’s good for whom? I mean, you cited the studies, they’re probably right, I don’t want to question that at all. Only, of course, if I have a young child who might tend toward violence, because they’re constantly fighting on the playground, then that child will probably respond to such games differently than a really sweet child who’s actually not violent at all… and every now and then this playing state, I find it a bit hard to believe that it has no influence at all. So that was a question, whether there’s some kind of approval or recommendation. I have no idea about that, so that’s a question to the round.
If I can answer that, Yasemin?
Gladly.
Yes, so it’s generally the case that, of course, like everything my child does or I do, it’s always a matter of responsibility. And I of course always need to know, because every person is individual. If I have, let’s say, and this isn’t meant negatively, if I have a sensitive child, which is actually rather positive, yes, and who processes things a bit longer or differently, needs longer to process it, then it’s definitely really, really important that I accompany this process intensively. This banning of video games and so on, that doesn’t accomplish anything at all. We know how clever our children are, and we also know that they can, let’s say, hide that from us without further ado, and that they can get access everywhere too. They create accounts that are of course for age 18 and up, but that’s absolutely no issue for them. And to answer that concretely, of course the recommendation, like with films or other content from the Federal Office for Media Harmful to Young Persons, or the video game commission, or the USK, and all the age restrictions formulated on video games, you should take those very seriously. Of course you can always discuss it further. I have to say, we always have the newest PlayStation, we always have everything from Nintendo, whether that’s the Switch, the Wii U, or whatever. We basically also have all the mobile devices back in the day, PlayStation Vita, and I’m getting the new model too now. I’ve also played a lot of VR. And I’m not the first-person-shooter type, I have to say that. I did do that in between too. That’s just not really my thing. But not because of the violence in it, that’s something completely different for me. I can barely stand it either, when I see any war situations, but for me that’s reality then. My brain and my knowledge, my experience and my assessment, or also my feeling for video games, can definitely assess that. What’s reality now and where is it really serious? And a simulation can cause me to evaluate situations somewhat differently. And this positive effect, that I experience this in a playful way, has nothing to do with me deciding the same way in a real moment as in a video game. That’s certainly not the case. And so, if grandpa buys the eight-year-old boy Black Ops, where there are war simulations or first-person-shooter situations that are depicted very realistically, then of course it’s always concerning if the parents or grandparents have no idea about these video games. But I’ve, for example, also partly allowed my boys video games that were only for age 16 or 18 and up, because I played them myself first to check, is this something? But a game like Uncharted, where you also have to solve a lot of puzzles yourself, where there’s a crazy story behind it, or The Last of Us, that was a revelation for me, this video game. And it’s one of the most influential pop culture elements of the last ten years, regardless of the successful series that just ran recently. I just want to say, all these effects that go along with it, these worlds, that’s part of the entertainment, which is also regarded as such by almost everyone involved. The negative thing is, sure, our main topic is violence in video games, but we’ve also addressed various other aspects. The negative thing is, regardless of the fact that Barmer has absolutely no shares whatsoever in video game involvement or anything, so of course they’ve built gamification into their own education systems or their apps, but they have absolutely no economic ties with the games industry in that sense. This study came about because it represents a societal situation that people wanted to shed light on, and where people wanted to clear up clichés. That’s why the Barmer study, which you can easily google. It’s not necessarily my job to write the source in here, because I think you can definitely find it if I type “Barmer study on video games” into Google, and then it comes up and I can look at it. And then I can also see what are relevant studies and then I have to figure out myself, with my research instincts, what’s credible as a source and what’s not, or what appeals to me, whatever. The negative thing about video games, I think, is, as you also mentioned, Sabine, that you get into these in-app purchases really, really quickly, or that additional packages get offered, or that certain video games, I mean, you just have to consider, the video games that come out, they cost, in the basic version, if it’s a good deal, somewhere between 50 and 70 euros. But usually most people buy the version where extra situations are already offered, or add-ons are already offered, where you can start directly a bit stronger in the game. And those start at around 100 euros. If I play FIFA, that soccer game, then I could easily spend 1000 euros on a video game to build a good team. So that’s also very, very strongly criticized, that video games are set up that way. Not all of course, but some, especially from EA Sports, Electronic Arts, which of course is a publisher that belongs to the big five. And they’re very, very strongly criticized because of course they sell massively popular games and have very, very expensive licenses too. And that’s among the most popular and best-selling games. And then of course they use that. I find that very negative too. But there too, there are already these so-called anti-loot-box laws, where certain barriers get built in so that the games industry can’t leave children and teenagers, let’s say, without appropriate education, with some packages we then have to book.
Thank you so much. I’d like to address Celine’s question at this point too. She asked, where does the finding about the study source come from, please. There’s of course no source for an unpublished study, because it isn’t published. However, this problem is quite widespread and well known in science. Just google it and see how many studies, so to speak, or what’s estimated, how many studies don’t get published. And that’s not only true for the games industry, but in many fields, because of course studies are usually commissioned by someone, since they also need to be financed somehow, and often there are interests behind it, and accordingly certain companies that have an interest in it have certain things carried out and then also decide what of it even gets published or not. And that’s known not only regarding the games industry, but in all other fields too. So whether that’s health fields, medical products and similar, all the way to studies sometimes being repeated with different parameters until the desired result is achieved and can then be published accordingly. So there are really, really many investigations and many reports to be found online about this too. A single study that isn’t published is again a completely different point. However, there too, for example, if you just type into Google how many studies aren’t published because they’re not desired, you get directly a lot of hits in Google too and can research further here too. As I said, this isn’t a phenomenon specifically aimed at the games industry, but happens in all fields, and that’s also well known in science.
That’s one thing. The other thing, maybe to add here too. At some point a while ago, before the neuroscientist Gerhard Roth passed away — he unfortunately left us this year, a really big loss I think — I had the opportunity to exchange with him about this too and formulate one question or another. There actually aren’t enough studies. My question to him was what that’s basically due to, that you can’t give general “answers” here because these studies simply don’t exist. And even if I now look for studies from Barmer or something, I immediately see, when I have the first results here, something like Barmer, there’s for example, let me look at the first result right now, moment, where do we have that, I just found it. For example, seven days ago: gaming has a pain-relieving effect. How e-sports supports health and recovery. A Spanish research team showed in a study with 19 children with cancer that playing video games has a positive effect on pain perception. I find that great, yes, but this headline alone already says relatively a lot. Namely, that a very, very specific area is being examined here, for example, and accordingly statements are of course made too. And that’s exactly where the problem lies, that’s what Gerhard Roth said in this context at least, in order to be able to make such general statements about how it affects aggression and whatever, whether these games increase it or so, you’d need to have a group where you specifically examine that and another group where that’s completely excluded. So where you can really make sure they have no media influences whatsoever, so to speak, where nothing happens that goes in the direction of violence. And if you don’t have this control group, and over a longer period, and that makes sense, that’s understandable for all of us, that it’s somehow difficult in our world today to exclude everything completely, so to speak, and only observe and evaluate this aggression factor caused by the games. And that’s why there are no studies. And you can’t shield children or adolescents or adults completely from the rest of the outside world in order to conduct such an investigation. And that’s exactly why no general answers can be given here, so to speak, but we always have to look at the studies against the background of what specifically they can make a statement about, what exactly was examined, and it can’t simply be arbitrarily transferred to other contexts, so here too you have to proceed very, very carefully, in quotation marks. That doesn’t mean there aren’t also positive effects, you can see that now from the headline I just read, I find that wonderful, and I can also well imagine that this can be very well examined too. These are people, so 19 children who have cancer, where something very specific was used to look at this, and it was found that it has a positive effect on pain perception. Here of course you’d have to look more closely into the study, what kind of video games those were that had that alleviating effect, and so on. So here too, not to give a general answer, but to keep looking. That’s true not just in this area, by the way, we’ve opened that up in many other places too, that it’s really, really important to always look very, very specifically here and be very careful with generalizations.
I saw that Sabine wanted to say something, and Stefan gladly in order, and then Erik too, if you’d like to add something, before we then move into the closing round.
Sabine.
Yes, Stefan, that you’re pro on this, you’ve made that clear. I find that quite — the problem though, and you already addressed this, is that grandma gives the child something she doesn’t know herself. Honestly, I could look at it and think, oh God, that’s not my direction, but I can’t really immerse myself in it and find my way around, and then judge whether it’s okay or not okay. And I think the younger generation moves really fast for us there too, unless you’re really interested in it, then you’re probably into it too. I don’t know many people my age or older who immerse themselves in that so much. So it’s of course also difficult to be a good role model for the children there. And what I also wanted to say, I see another danger there. I know someone in my circle of acquaintances, the son, I think, or the mother says it this way, I don’t know, drifted into gaming in the end because of the divorce. And I don’t think the problem was even what he played. He played Minecraft, which I believe is a building game, which is actually still quite fine in itself. The problem in the end was the time. When he slept at his father’s, he slept at night, but he played at night. So, he had to repeat a grade. He was in psychiatric treatment. He really drifted into gaming addiction. And I think the path there can go really, really fast too. That doesn’t have anything to do with violence now, maybe physical violence toward himself. I see a really big danger there, because it pulls you in just like a TV. And so, if the parents aren’t paying attention, it’s very dangerous time-wise.
Thank you so much. Stefan, you also wanted to add something.
Yes, so first of all, generally, which study should you not just take at face value? And which study should you, or generally in research, check for credibility, interests, conflicts, lobbying, whatever. It’s quite clear that you have to keep an eye on that. So that means, for me that’s no different an approach with video game studies. I generally just find that most people who, for example, ban video games for their children or restrict them so heavily, that they — I find, how should I put it, many parents also always look for excuses, because they themselves weren’t competent enough in some way to solve or recognize certain problems differently, they very, very often push that onto video games or onto behavior with video games or whatever. Every video game, especially with Minecraft, by the way the best-selling game in the world, because the pro version costs somewhere between 20 and 40 euros, depending on what you want. And the Microsoft game, that’s the most successful and most-played game in the world. And that’s simply a phenomenon, you can spend a lot of money on it, that’s true, but usually you can also play through it normally without spending anything. It’s just enormously popular. There are education programs from Microsoft on the topic of Minecraft, where you can learn to program in schools and where Microsoft provides the code and various other tools so you can create your own Minecraft game levels. I find that great. I generally think that society should engage much more intensively with the topic of video games, because it has so many positive effects. Of course you can’t leave out the negative aspects. That’s quite clear. You have to discuss those just as much, and that’s also an aspect you keep hearing here under the room title violence in video games. Now I’ve of course had the opportunity to dive deep, not only because I play video games myself, because I’ve clearly always watched together with my children what’s good for them and what’s not good for them. Of course there were also discussions where I then said, no, I’m sorry, I don’t think this video game is right for you right now at this moment. But if I have Star Wars or something else, and then I kill people in it too, and in massive numbers, or also other body forms or life forms. But that’s a completely different way of how I deal with that, what entertainment factor it has, and what effects I derive from it. Especially since, as I mentioned earlier, with spatial thinking, both hemispheres of the brain get intensively promoted. There are so many positive effects that have resulted from this. And that’s why I can only hold the flag high for it. If parents have no idea about video games, they should definitely engage with the topic. Never ban it, but always look at it, of course paying attention to the times, like with all rules and structures, always presenting a clear scenario so children know what’s what, but also realistic. You’re allowed to play half an hour of Minecraft now. No, that’s not how it works. You play two, three hours of Minecraft, but you’re not damaged by that. If I play eight hours, that’s not good. So of course you also have to pay a bit of attention to recommendations and use common sense. But demonizing video games and always using them as an excuse, without having any idea about them, I think that’s wrong.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and I’m absolutely with you there, that it’s not entirely general, so to speak, we’ve established this with many topics, we keep finding that general statements just aren’t appropriate here. It always has to be differentiated again and again, because it’s complex. I’d like to add one aspect, namely, I’ll make the comparison again to drugs now. All drugs have one thing in common, they act on the mesolimbic dopamine system, and they cause dopamine to be released, and through this mechanism the number of receptors also gets increased accordingly, and that causes the behavior to keep being maintained, because there are always more of these receptors that always want more, so to speak, now also looked at from the brain side, what happens there. And with non-substance addictions, like playing games for example, it has the same effect, and that’s why, for example, gaming addiction can develop too. And you said it really well, Stefan, that it also has to do with how much is played. So the more I play games, and regardless of whether that’s with violent content or without violent content at this point, quite generally, the danger that gaming addiction can develop, but doesn’t have to, increases accordingly here through dopamine being released and these receptors multiplying. And it always also has to do with, the dose makes the poison, so to speak, at this point. So, I can’t say exactly when that starts or something, or how many hours, no idea, whether there are studies on that, you’d have to look into that too. But that’s something you can say is definitely an effect it can have. And that’s why it’s generally to be enjoyed with a certain caution too. But as I said, you can compare it here with other things too. It’s not about video games being bad per se, or violent video games being bad, but we have different aspects in life on different levels. I opened that up earlier with the example of series. That obviously affects my dopamine too, which correspondingly multiplies the receptors, in quotation marks, so that I just can’t get out of this cycle. And I think it’s important then to do educational work here too, to approach it with a certain attentiveness, to observe yourself and then make decisions for yourself accordingly. And that can be for one person that it works quite well, and they can maybe consume much more or play games or similar. And for the other, the limit might be reached much earlier at this point, and they need other levers, so to speak, to not even get pulled into this pull. And everyone has to decide that for themselves.
What I find great, Stefan, is that you really take this time. And it would of course be desirable that other parents do this for their kids too, whether that’s now for TV or video games or similar, to first look much more consciously themselves and then decide what I can wave through or approve, in quotation marks, and what maybe rather not, because I might have concerns there or similar. But against this background, of course, there are also time aspects, or depending on which generation it is. One might know their way around better, the other is already far removed from it and can’t imagine anything about it at all, those are of course also challenges that come with it here too.
Erik, would you like to add something too, before we move into the closing round, or you can gladly follow up and then directly bring in your closing word for today too.
Yes gladly, I’d like to open one more door to close. Following on from what you said earlier in connection with studies, that you can’t isolate someone from all games. Conversely, you could say we have a mega-study, in which probably almost all people somehow play, and many of these games are probably violence simulations too. And you could also look into the animal kingdom. There too, playing happens. There too, there are probably violence-simulation games, especially with animals with very developed brains or large brains, if you think of marine mammals or things like that. And ultimately, I think, the video game is actually just a technology that’s used. As a small child you maybe have Lego as technology available, or toy cars, or in earlier times there was maybe the technology of the stick and the stones you found in the forest, to play cowboys and Indians or whatever. Playing itself, I think, is essentially important for the development of the brain, and also to see what influence you have, without really having to try it out in the real world. And I think video games also serve this part, and that’s why they’re maybe not just, well, harmless, but maybe even necessary, because it simply serves an important development of the brain too. That would be my closing sentence at the same time.
Yes, really, really cool. Thank you so much, and another perspective too, looking at the whole thing from this aspect of play too. And Jürgen wrote something about this in the chat too, with the suggestion that we should maybe pick up the topic of playing in general as an essential, lifelong accompanying educational instrument as a topic for us. Adjacent or directly affected topic areas would then, in his view, be things like developing empathic intelligence and personal self-control as an example, and I find that aspect really exciting too.
Yes, then Sabine, let’s slowly round off the room, also your highlight, so to speak, from the room today, and then gladly Stefan, and then I’ll gladly wrap up.
My highlight was Stefan with his positive view, and I find that quite positive too, from the whole way of thinking. It reminded me of our stock market game that we played in the room, something I could of course do exactly via video too. Still, I’m like, as you said, with the 2-3 hours, that’s a big deal if I have to spend three hours on it every day, say. Thank you, great topic.
Wonderful, thank you so much, Stefan.
Yes, so generally I also wanted to emphasize that I’m coming across a bit passionate here about the topic of video games. That doesn’t mean I don’t accept, or find it strange, that of course there’s also a lot of criticism, or that it also gets voiced here. That’s quite clear, that it’s a very complex topic, yes, because it’s definitely the case that video games do first demand that you dive in deeper. That’s true. But I think if you engage with the topic, and I’d actually be happy if there were a special room for this at some point, because video games are part of our culture, yes, and a large part of our culture. If you look at all the effects it has on our daily life, the insights, the developments. Untold billions are put into video games, not just into the aesthetics but generally into the development, into all the techniques, like the Unreal Engine or all the engines that make video games possible at all, where programming happens, so to speak. That’s something used worldwide in the economy, yes, for all kinds of situations. So there are very, very many points. Now of course comes the topic of artificial intelligence, which has already been a big topic in video games for many years, and is already processed there too. I think it’s a broad spectrum. I think we should also allow ourselves a bit more fun. Yes, because video games really are fun. And when I think of the time with the kids at Nintendo, yes, where you now, I’d say, casual games, not these hardcore games on PlayStation, but casual games, where you take a controller that’s simultaneously a tennis racket or a golf club or bowling or whatever. Those times aren’t over, they still exist. The console has changed, but the games are still similar, in quotation marks, where you can have a lot, a lot of fun with the family too. Especially these positive effects that result from it, all these reward systems that take place, as I said, gamification, that I can represent speeds. There are very, very many positive aspects. And the negatives, that’s like with all things, we as a society, and with the legislators, and of course also with the publishers and with everyone responsible in the games industry, need to continue solving that. No question about it. But not banning it, because that’s like — if we ban video games for our children, that’s like them banning our hobbies or whatever we like to do. It’s part of pop culture, and we should understand it as such and engage with it more closely, because I think we’ll learn a lot of interesting, great, positive things. And my last word now, Yasemin, before you start hyperventilating that I’m going on too long here. I wanted to say, by the way, gaming is going to be Olympic. Yes, and I’m looking forward to that.
Yes, wonderful. Thank you so much. Great, dear ones. I really find it wonderful that we’ve opened up quite different perspectives on the topic today too, and so, yes, just let it resonate and feel free to gather and sort your thoughts, so you can then also research one thing or another yourselves afterward. I’ll gladly note down the topic with games, to pick up the meaning of play in general, so to speak, and maybe make a room about that elsewhere too. I find that a great thing, because it certainly has a special meaning for humans, and it’s worth looking at more closely here too. Tomorrow we continue with the psychology of power. How does power influence our thinking and behavior is the question we want to engage with tomorrow. So you’re all very warmly invited to join again tomorrow at 8am German time, and see together in which direction the exchange and reflection lead us accordingly. Until then, take care. Ciao!
