Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: What role do self-reflection and self-observation play in gaining insight — and can we ever really grow beyond ourselves without them? That’s the question we explore in Room #845 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme of “Insight (and gaining it).” Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…
Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.
A wonderful good morning to you all. Today we continue with self-knowledge and self-reflection. So what role do self-reflection and self-observation play in gaining insight, that’s the question we want to engage with today. We already had some initial connecting points yesterday, where we touched on this aspect of reflection, of self-reflection, on the side too. So I think we can either pick up on one thing or another here, or go into it with new thoughts in this context too. Yes, and that’s what we want to look at together today. So you’re all very, very warmly invited to join this morning too, to share your thoughts on this, how important self-reflection and self-observation actually are, to be able to gain insight, and maybe also grow beyond yourself. And so another quick reminder for anyone joining for the first time today, that we’re recording the room, and by joining you automatically agree, on one hand, that the recording is running, and on the other hand, that the whole thing will be published too. And we have three small room rules to consider. One is a profile photo where you’re clearly recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. Anyone who doesn’t want that, because they want to stay anonymous or it’s just not possible right now, is warmly invited to use the chat too, and bring in questions or contributions that way. And then I’ll gladly look at picking up one thing or another over the course of the 60 minutes we have together again today. A wonderful good morning, dear Marc. What do you say about that?
Good morning to the round. I distinguish between self-perception and self-reflection. To make that easier to understand, I thought of this for today — let’s assume, Mr. Müller, so self-perception is the thoughts about myself, with myself and my feelings. And Mr. Müller thinks about himself, I’m a totally polite person. Mr. Müller gets up at three in the morning because he has to go to work very early, and heads to work. Mr. Müller just hasn’t considered that he’s pretty grumpy in the morning. And when he encounters people and acquaintances on his way to work in the morning, he doesn’t greet them. If you asked these people, is Mr. Müller friendly, they’d say, no, he never greets us. Mr. Müller thinks, but I always greet people. Because as soon as he’s had his first coffee at the company at 9am, every colleague would confirm, wow, that’s an empathetic person. Mr. Müller always has an open word, he’s super friendly. And now I come to self-reflection. Self-reflection, for me that contains “reflecting” like a mirror. Self-reflecting would then be, if I have the courage and I’m open and have the desire for change, or I engage with whether I’m thinking the right thing, and whether my self-perception is correct, and I would — so I’m then open and go to a colleague and say, hey, I’m just curious, how do I actually come across to you? Then the colleague would tell him, yes, you’re very friendly, that’s what I thought, that’s how I perceive myself too. But if he asked the people he encounters on the way to work in the morning, whom he doesn’t speak to, they’d have a completely different picture of him and would say, well, I don’t know, I don’t want to overstep, Mr. Müller, but you don’t greet us, you always look away, I always have the feeling you’re pretty unfriendly. Then I’d say, oh, I didn’t even notice that, I was just tired. And that’s the difference for me between self-perception, where I only engage with myself, with my self-constructed reality, and self-reflection, in exchange with others. That could also be exchange with myself, but there I go more into exchange with others, and approach it more openly, and get self-knowledge about myself from others.
Okay, thank you so much. And let me bring in the term self-knowledge now too, because now you have self-perception, self-reflection. What about self-knowledge in this context?
I’d maybe combine self-knowledge with self-perception already. Because if Mr. Müller is never in exchange with others, then his self-perception, his self-constructed reality, is correct. He perceives himself that way, he can’t perceive anything else. And this self is always, when we engage with ourselves and never go outward, so are never willing to be open, be courageous, ask others how they perceive us — and we’ve had this topic before, everyone you ask is right, because we see things as they are and as we want to perceive them. But if we have the desire for change, and that’s really, really important for me with self-reflection — for me openness isn’t in the foreground there, because I could be totally open, so I’m a totally open person, and someone gives me advice, whether wanted or unwanted, and I say, I’m totally open, but I’m not willing to accept anything from it or change, then there won’t be a change process for me either. And that’s why, for me, self-reflection is more the step where I’m aware of what I think, how I think, and am willing to take on other perspectives, take on other evaluations, and add other hypotheses.
Okay wonderful, thank you so much. I find that fascinating, so that basically means self-perception and self-knowledge are, to some extent, used relatively synonymously as terms here. The question I ask myself is whether, when I perceive myself, in self-perception, whether an insight has always preceded it, in some form, so to speak, or whether it’s a pure bubble I’m in. That would be interesting to look at too. Now there are already a few hands raised that I’d like to consider, and then we can make cross-connections too. Thank you so much, dear Marc, for this start. Sonja, a wonderful good morning. What do you say about the topic?
Yes, a wonderful good morning. I found what Marc said really inspiring just now, because I had a similar realization yesterday. As you know, I’m in a separation situation, and I exchange ideas with other people about how things were, how I handled it, how my partner handled it. And a really interesting point came up yesterday. It was somehow the case with us that the situation was such that I built a lot of bridges toward talking, and my partner found talking very hard. And yesterday someone gave me the feedback, maybe it was exactly this bridge-building, this constant bridge-building, that made her feel weaker. And that was a mega valuable insight for me, because I’d never stumbled onto this thought, and it was so rich for me. I reflected on that, and of course, if talking is hard for me and the other person constantly shows me or makes it clear, hey, I’m building bridges for you, now come out of yourself — then that makes it clear to me that I’m not managing it, and that makes me feel even weaker, and that was so, so valuable. A huge self-knowledge through the reflection. This reflection was only possible for me because someone gave me this hint, and I was endlessly grateful for that. Because that opens up a completely new perspective for me now, and it also shows me that in the future I’ll handle bridge-building a bit more consciously, when it’s perceived as helpful and when it rather gives the other person the signal, hey, you can’t manage it otherwise if I don’t build the bridge for you. And that’s exactly the signal I don’t want to send, and that’s really a rich insight. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and here too we basically have reflection again, in the sense of arriving at, or reaching, an insight through exchange with someone else, so outward — and there it’s certainly interesting to see whether I can also reach an insight equally through my own reflection within my bubble, within self-perception. That would maybe be interesting to look at too. Vera, a wonderful good morning. What do you say about the topic?
Good morning. I think this topic fits me so well right now, especially self-knowledge and self-reflection, because I’ve always noticed, or I’m simply like this, that I’m very open, approach people, others, so I have no problem making contacts. But then at some point the shutter comes down very quickly, and it doesn’t go into further exchange. So for example, shall we get coffee together, and I don’t mean that in a relationship sense, but just getting to know people and such, and I became aware of that, and then the insight was, basically, if I don’t change that, I have no chance of getting to know acquaintances in a new city and building circles of friends, and I have to work on that, and I’ve been working on that for about five years now, and I remember a situation where there was a reception for new residents, and at the end three of us were still sitting at a table, and I thought, Gerda has to ask now, shall we do something together sometime. It was the first person I got to know, doesn’t live far away, and I think it took me half an hour, three quarters of an hour, to ask that and get her phone number. And since then we’ve become friends and everything. But that was an insight for me, wow, you can actually do it. You just have to do it continuously and jump over your own shadow. And with this whole process I always only settled that with myself, not outward. It was always just me myself, self-knowledge, reflection, and now steering and doing. Quite, yes.
Yes, great, thank you so much for sharing. That means, basically, since you just said you always settled that with yourself, that means self-reflection, and then also a regained insight, also later the insight that came afterward too, so an insight that comes before it, in the sense of a reflection that happens, that leads to you realizing, I need to somehow become active here, handle it differently, then take that initiative, to actually do that in the situation, to get into action regarding that, to then again derive an insight from it afterward, this “wow, I can actually do it!” So that’s the insight that comes afterward at that point, and all basically within the framework of the reflection I did myself, so to speak, within my bubble. I find that fascinating. Thank you so much. Alex, a wonderful good morning. What do you say about that?
Yes, a wonderful good morning to everyone. Really, really fascinating topic. So I think self-knowledge and self-perception are a bit different, at least in my world. With self-perception, it always depends on what stage you’re at, because you can perceive yourself completely differently if you’re zero reflected than if you’ve already gone through certain stages of personal development, if you’ve been mirrored, if someone’s given you a nudge on the topic of how you actually come across, or how that works, or which triggers regularly come through that you react to. So self-perception is this, how am I actually, this self-awareness, this self-perceiving, and it can also drift completely away from how you actually are, and self-knowledge requires an incredible amount of reflection, and I think the initial spark there always comes from outside at the start. I know that for myself, or with my clients too, it has to first come from outside, a kind of nudge. For me it was, for example, Byron Katie’s “The Work,” the questions, where it was really about, is what I’m telling myself actually true, and is that always the case, or also of course through NLP, through belief work, but you also have to be willing for that, and of course you can only do that from a certain stage of your mental, your spiritual development, and also from a certain willingness to look there too, because looking closely also hurts a lot, and it’s not always comfortable. Thanks for listening.
Yes, thank you so much, and let’s look at that a bit more precisely. What’s the thing that comes from outside? Is that a kind of impulse, or is it reflection with someone outside, so to speak? Maybe let’s differentiate that here too, Alex?
It can be both. It can be an impulse, that someone maybe says something, or that someone behaves in a way that triggers you, and you maybe already have the willingness, or you have the willingness, to look at why this triggers you at all — or, an example of mine, for example, I hate discussions, I hate the back and forth when someone starts discussing with me, and my best friend, who’s also really allowed to hold up the mirror to me, says, well, you do discuss, but only as long as you feel like it. And when it no longer suits you, you block it out completely. And I thought, ah, okay, I’ve never seen it that way. And that got me thinking. Is that actually the case? In which situations is that the case? And those are the impulses from outside that don’t always taste good. So I also thought, no, I’m actually quite nice. And then there was this restriction again. And that’s simply where, I think, you need an impulse from outside, no matter how it comes to you. Whether it’s now some event, an experience, a documentary, or whatever, where you feel emotionally addressed and where you’re also willing to open up. Because that’s what it’s about, this willingness to open up, so you recognize yourself, so you recognize who you actually are, or what’s going on inside you, and that’s of course an ongoing process. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and I’d like to add to that. Your mic’s still on, Alex, just as a note, and thank you. I’d like to briefly address something, because you just said it also has to do with which stage I’m at, especially in this differentiation of self-perception and self-reflection. A concrete example actually came to mind that I’d like to bring in as an impulse too, which I find quite fitting in this context, to make this “which stage am I at” comprehensible. Because especially this aspect of reflection is an aspect where we, basically, especially if we look at this from a professional context for example, would say this is a kind of meta-level. That means I look at events from a bird’s-eye view, so to speak. That means maybe going into a distance to my own person too, for example, and looking at the situation, so to speak like a bird hovering over the whole thing, to actually do this reflection and then evaluate again. And in this context, something actually just happened recently, namely a client I accompany within a book project, where the chapters get worked through regularly now, and so on. And there are of course certain aspects where, while talking through it, you automatically get into this reflection, so to speak, because certain peculiarities or patterns get discovered, for example. And interestingly, there was a pattern that struck me while working through it — that for some reason this client keeps suddenly switching, while describing certain things, from the first-person perspective into, well, you could say a meta-perspective, so suddenly writes about herself in the third person. And that’s of course particularly irritating for the reader, why the author is now suddenly writing about herself in the third person, and it’s not always clear that she’s actually reporting about herself in the third person right now. And bringing that up triggered something in her, that she realized she doesn’t just do that in writing, but that there are also many situations in her life where she actually really talks or thinks about herself in the third person, for example, and similar. And yes, and that triggered a process, which isn’t limited to writing, but recognizing a pattern here and looking at it more closely. I’m now waiting for the next joint session we have. Because I’d like to bring in this impulse there, which then had an effect on me too, that I realized, then afterward while thinking about it and reflecting, that I can well imagine it might also be connected to the fact that, because she accompanies other people herself and also works as a coach, that through this exercise she has, of looking from the meta-perspective, she automatically maybe suddenly, at one point or another, talks about herself in this third person, always when she’s operating on this meta-level, and that the language in her thoughts, or also in her writing style, then maybe also switches at that point. And I’m curious what result that has for her with this impulse, so to speak, whether it has an effect on her, or what the result of that is, I just found that really, really fascinating at that point, Alex, because you just said it also has to do with what stage I’m operating at, so to speak. And I think it makes sense to really ask yourself that question too, to look at it more closely, to maybe gain an insight in relation to what stage I’m actually operating at, and step into self-reflection here too. So thank you so much for this impulse. That let me build this bridge wonderfully too, and this example — I wouldn’t have thought of it if this aspect from you hadn’t come up. With that I’d like to switch to Layla first, and then we can gladly make cross-connections.
A wonderful good morning, dear Layla.
A wonderful good morning. I was just thinking, after what’s just been said, because I actually wanted to give a definition first, that for me self-knowledge actually has to do with this doing. So that it has to do with the doing. My mother would scold me now and say, doing doesn’t do you any good, doing doesn’t do you any good. Actually, that it has something to do with action and with repetition, and that reflection alone doesn’t advance you yet. Because before Alex spoke, I wanted to say, I consider myself a very reflected person, and then I thought, well, that depends on which mirror I currently have in front of me, because there we’re at the topic, we’re a “zoon politikon,” I didn’t come up with that, it’s from someone else. That means we often see ourselves — the other person is, so to speak, a mirror of ourselves, whether that’s the coach or whoever that might be. And that means, I wrote this to Sonja recently, that impulses can happen there, especially in this reflection. But I think you have to be careful whom you take as a mirror. And there we’re now at self-knowledge. I now dare to say, I consider myself a reflected person. That’s also been attributed to me often. So it’s not just a personal view of the whole thing, but actually, well I reported about it, if I look at my teacher training now. You notice, I immediately go into the authority argument. I shouldn’t stray too far from the topic now. But what you have to see is simply, who has this view of me, and do they have a complete view? Because I wrote to Sonja, sometimes it’s a distorted picture, sometimes it’s a blurry picture, and sometimes it’s just a cutout of the whole. Which means, does the person actually know me correctly? Is this a transference right now? And even if someone, I don’t know, even if we now look at our inner dialogue, our inner team — who’s actually speaking there right now? Where does this belief I have about myself come from? Those are attributions I often have from outside. And now I don’t know, you’re probably more into the topic, when can I give myself an attribution? I once heard, I’m the chairman. That means, do I trust myself to give myself an attribution, without someone else telling me, okay, that’s a distorted picture, you’re this and that — because I think, isn’t that a life task, to find that out too? I was just thinking about your client, Yasemin, whether she’s trying to take on a different perspective when she goes into the third person. That means, reflection also has to do with distance from yourself, and getting, in quotes, an objective view. Which would mean, I look at myself then as a mirror from outside, and Alex said it correctly, this looking is also not easy. I’ve just realized at some point that I don’t want to accept every attribution I’m given, and that not every opinion is important to me. If someone says, I don’t like you, or you’re this and that, then in most cases they usually don’t really know me that precisely and don’t have this view at all. I don’t hold that against the other person at all. But if I’m lucky and reflected enough, I’ve gained the insight about myself that I have a fairly complete picture. And that’s really the question, can you have a complete picture of yourself? To what extent do you need that from outside? And a psychologist once told me — because I used to be like that, this picture toward the outside mattered to me, whether someone likes me or not, and I can’t quite take that away from myself now either, that it’s still like that today too, and that it also hurts me when someone says, I don’t like you. And yet, she told me, over the years, the number of those who don’t like her will increase, but the number of those who like her will increase just as much. My teacher told her that. And that’s why I think, if someone only sees this partial cutout, or only has a distorted picture, I don’t know if that’s already reflection. Because we had this in previous rooms too. I can only look at the current, only this cutout right now, and not the potential that’s in someone, and not this complete picture. Now I’m curious what you all think about that, and thank you for listening.
Yes, thank you so much, and we can gladly make cross-connections again right away too. So whoever would like to, feel free to give a signal already. I can gladly connect directly. The first thoughts I have on this now are the following. On one hand, differentiating again here — what’s actually reflection that can either happen together, outward, or that I do for myself, so to speak, and the aspect of attribution. Because the aspect of attribution relates to “I am XY,” even if I pick up the term “chairman” now, or “you are XY,” whereas the other is “I behave like this and that.” There I’m exclusively on the behavioral level, which doesn’t have anything to do with the personal attribution at first. And really differentiating here again, and looking more closely — if someone says I don’t like you, they’ve experienced or interpreted something beforehand, so to speak, and so on, and transferred that onto my person, so to speak, and come to a conclusion. And the other is, if I’m now in pure reflection, let’s assume we have a feedback situation, and in the feedback situation someone reflects something back to me about a certain behavior, then that’s initially also subjective, in quotes, only if I get this feedback repeatedly from various places, then something might possibly underlie the whole thing, which would also bring a justified assumption to say, I should maybe look at that. What is it that leads to me getting this feedback again and again, for example? So then it’s no longer purely subjective, but then something seems to be happening in the transference that triggers a repeated piece of feedback, so to speak. And then I can look at that again in self-reflection, whereas with a one-time piece of feedback I get about a behavior, I’m allowed to handle that in a differentiated way too, in the sense of, well, that could be subjective now, but it could also be that way with others. And then we also have this aspect — we brought this up once in relation to, for example, speaking too fast or something — that of course it can be that one person perceives that as exactly right in speaking pace, the other perceives it as much too fast in speaking pace, and that doesn’t necessarily have to be generalizable. So there are various components here too, that we can pick up on again, and that we can look at more closely again. I haven’t seen any other hands raised right now. Actually, Marc, so let’s look at making the cross-connections first. And then you can gladly, after getting a few impulses on that too, connect again too. Marc, and then Sonja, please.
Well, I’ve had the experience that if I’m willing — and Alex told you this too — a change process, so if I have the desire to start a change process, whether from outside or from myself, then it’s not about whether my coach knows me or doesn’t know me at all. On the contrary, I prefer people who don’t know me at all. Because the coach doesn’t need to know me at all. They don’t need to know how I am completely, I don’t even know that myself, but they need to ask me the right questions. They need to say, is where you’re moving professionally what you want? Is where you currently are in a relationship what you want? And I say, Yasemin’s always emphasized that, and I can fully underline that. A coach is not an advisor. He helps me get to know myself better. And it’s an independent person. And I can only speak for myself. I’ve noticed for myself that I sometimes can’t talk about the real questions with certain people, because I’m simply raised that way, or have my beliefs, that I don’t always tell the truth either. And just a small example. I’m sitting across from my boss, I’m employed, and my boss asks me, do you enjoy working for me? Well, what am I supposed to say to that? No, you’re a total idiot, I’d rather go somewhere else. Or my partner — I’m thinking of separating from my partner. She asks me, do you still love me? I say, no, actually not, actually I’d prefer if we’d already separated a week ago. These questions, if a stranger asks me them, force me to think about what I really want. And I can answer completely openly, without hurting anyone. Because in this answering process it’s only about finding out what I want. Whether my coach knows me better afterward or not plays absolutely no role, if he manages to help me start a change process.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Sonja.
These are such great impulses here, I like this a lot, so many different perspectives on this, and I wanted to say something on the point about whether another person needs to have a complete picture of me. I don’t see it that way at all, actually, because it’s always just a cutout of what others see of us, and what they can give us feedback about too. There’s no one who knows us completely, and we ourselves don’t know ourselves completely either. So we’re allowed to be grateful for every facet an outsider makes us aware of. And of course that sometimes hurts, when we get certain feedback we don’t like. And then the question is, how can I distinguish whether this feedback is valuable to me right now, or whether it just hurts and doesn’t fit me at all. And I find it helps there to also compare the value systems a little. What value world does the other person live in? Is their perspective important to me? If yes, then I take the feedback much more seriously than if the person represents completely different values than I do. Because then I simply know I don’t want to orient myself by that. And I think you get that quite well through a sense of resonance. How does that resonate in me? How does that feel? Does it just hurt because I notice, whoa, touché? Or does it hurt because I have the feeling the other person doesn’t understand me at all and doesn’t see me? And I think that’s another really important point — that you go into your own feeling and stay open to which world the other person comes from, which perspective the other person is giving me this valuable feedback from, and whether I want to grow at this point. That’s also an important point, and if yes, then I should listen to as many different perspectives as I can get. Thank you.
Yes, great, thank you so much. Before I gladly hand over to Alex again, let me pick up this aspect too. “They don’t know me at all” — that sounds to me like something’s being triggered that maybe leads to a kind of justification position. And now it would actually be interesting to look into the past, pick up different examples, and see what that triggers. Or also to gladly observe in the future, in the sense of reflection — is it the type of message, how it’s delivered, meaning there are “you” messages instead of “I” messages for example, that automatically puts me into a justification situation? Or, and this could definitely be, is this — and here this “they don’t know me completely” could connect — that I basically have a topic here, for some reason, with accepting that at all, or that it’s hard for me generally to deal with certain feedback from outside, in quotes? But really differentiating here again — is it the way this message is delivered, or does it have something to do with me? And looking closely at that again. Layla, you have to hold on for a moment, in quotes, because Alex wants to add something briefly too, and then I promise I’ll come back to you. Alex.
Yes, thank you so much. Sorry, Layla, if I push ahead a bit here, but this is exactly in relation to Sonja. I understood this “they don’t know me at all” thing as being about, Sonja correct me if I’m wrong, we show different facets. That means I’m completely different in my private environment than in the professional context. As a mom on the football field, for example, when I’m watching my little one kick a ball around, I show a completely different personality than when I stand in front of a class as a teacher, principal, or whatever. And I think that’s simply connected, because we’re so multifaceted. We have so many personalities. That’s why I actually consider this authenticity chatter partly really counterproductive too. Because we’re authentic, or seem authentic, in the roles we have to play in our lives. And that’s primarily what it’s about. And if someone judges me, they can also only judge one facet that I show them. Sonja, I hope I understood that correctly. At least that’s how I feel about it. That means I also have to be willing, if I want a reflection from another person, to show them more of myself, and partly maybe also show my shadow sides and my inner abysses too. Thank you so much.
Yes, great, thank you so much. Layla, thank you for your patience. Now I have to be transparent first, because it has nothing to do with lacking patience, but actually with me not losing my thread, because I’m always thinking along. So that has to do with neurodiversity. And there we’re actually already at the point, because neurodiversity plays into this for me. I told you once, Yasemin, I’ve tried my whole life to climb into a box I didn’t fit into. That’s why you’re right that this attribution from outside — because that’s the thing with ADHD, when people tell you you’re not trying hard enough, you’re not doing this and that, and you think, but I’m trying so hard. And I’ve listened to a lot, a lot of English-language audiobooks now too, which I can really, really recommend, because they’ve done a lot there. Jodie Landridge, for example, is a great book. Look, and now I’m already going off topic. Anyway, the point I’m getting at is simply, you’re both completely right. It’s about, do I have an issue with this myself? That has to do with reflection. And when I hear things from outside, but if you think about it, you’ve heard this the whole time, you try hard, but you’re now neurodivergent in some way, or maybe have an issue there too. And I was thinking, how do I handle feedback now? Is every piece of feedback — we live in a feedback society. That means we hope for a like or a dislike, we’re on Instagram. And it’s a bit like it used to be. It wasn’t different back then either, actually. That’s not just a societal development, we had that before too. It’s just the question of when do I give feedback, and how do I give feedback? Because of course, Sonja, you’re right, it can be valuable. But I’d say for myself, I don’t find every piece of feedback incredibly valuable, because I always think about how it’s expressed. And exactly what you said, Sonja, my seminar’s deputy head once told me that. He said, you can try as hard as you like. If someone has a different value system than you, it’ll always be that it’s correct in their world. Till Reinhardt once said, that leaves feedback without the other person meaning nothing. I found that quite funny in that context too. And the question I ask myself is, I don’t know, do you have to give every piece of feedback, no matter how well I mean it? And what if I don’t mean it well? My mom once told me, you know, Layla, if you can’t say anything nice, just don’t say anything at all. And of course we don’t want the other person to run into their misfortune. Sometimes we’re just annoyed, or find what the other person is doing stupid. And I catch myself doing that too, when I’m standing at the checkout and there’s an older gentleman behind me, “can’t this just…” and I think to myself, or an older lady. And I’ve caught myself saying, excuse me, we’re shopping here, not fleeing. And the question is, to what extent is that justified? I wanted to protect the cashier, I worked at a checkout myself. But how do I express feedback so it moves the other person forward? Is that my concern? And do I always have to voice it? If I, I don’t know, if I don’t like someone, do I have to tell them that, or can’t I just say, okay, my dance floor, your dance floor, let’s just keep our distance, kindly — but if I notice, okay, this is an emotional thing for me right now, do I then go into self-reflection, and I don’t exclude myself from that, because I’m an emotional person too, or how do I handle that? And Alex, what you said, I just want to say briefly, you’re so right, because I don’t like this term authenticity that much either, honestly, because we all have role models. And I learned that in my studies and earlier too, and was told, well, you always have to be the same. No, you don’t. You don’t have to. You can’t. You can’t be at the bank the way you are with your buddies at the regulars’ table. That doesn’t work. I can’t let out all my emotions as a teacher. That’s not at all — I’m absolutely not professional there. If I have a bad day as a cashier, then I’d better not let it show. And yes, that’s mean, but that’s just my role in that case. And so thank you for that. That actually hit the nail on the head. So, Yasemin, that’s why I did that, because now we connect. Have fun. I manage that well. No worries.
Thank you so much. There were really a lot of aspects in there that I’d like to pick up on too. One, I’d like to pick up on the justified question, do I have to give every piece of feedback, and the reverse question is, do I also have to accept every piece of feedback? That’s one thing. Of course I can’t influence the other person on whether they give feedback or not, but I can influence whether I accept the feedback or not. That’s one thing. The other is, I can influence how I handle it myself. So do I have to give feedback in every situation, or can I maybe keep one thing or another to myself, because I don’t consider it important enough, or similar, or wasn’t asked for feedback? That’s also just a topic where I can keep it to myself and not respond to it. Then the second impulse I had is also to differentiate cleanly here again and look at, what actually is feedback? Because the example with someone grumbling at the checkout, in quotes, is for me just — they gave in to their emotion and showed that something didn’t suit them. That has nothing to do with mirroring or giving feedback for me at all. So really looking here again at what actually is real feedback. Because we tend, in everyday life, to really classify all kinds of things as feedback, so to speak. But if we really engage more intensively with feedback and feedback rules and so on, we’ll notice that it requires a really clear framework, the way messages get reflected back, and so on. So there are a lot of aspects here. It also shows that in a lot of situations it’s either not feedback at all, or an attempt is started to give feedback outward, but it still can’t be classified as feedback, because, for example, you’re judging the person rather than reflecting on the behavior. Just as an example here. And that’s why it makes sense to go into this differentiation again here too. And yes, let me announce this already — tomorrow we talk about authenticity and self-knowledge. So I’m really looking forward to that, because we’ll turn our attention to that too. Maybe as a preview, without wanting to go too deep — authenticity has nothing to do, for me, with always being the same, but authenticity has to do with being real. And I can be real in different roles, which doesn’t mean being the same. That’s an essential difference from my perspective. And then tomorrow we can gladly look at that more closely, especially under this aspect of the different roles we take on, and it’s important that we take them on, gladly also look at tensions and dilemmas, because especially in a professional context that plays a really big role, and this aspect of authenticity definitely plays into that too, and an important role, and so I think we already have great material for conversation tomorrow. Thank you so much for that. Marc, Sonja, Vera, Alex, would you like to make cross-connections somewhere here too, not just to what Layla said, but gladly picking up other aspects that have already been addressed today too. Marc, gladly.
I have to jump in on the word feedback again, and I learned this in your room, dear Yasemin, at the authors’ breakfast. Feedback is negatively connoted for me, because it’s usually always, you’re doing this wrong, and this and that, and feedforward, that’s a word I’ll never forget again. Feedforward, when someone tells me, listen Marc, if you change this now, that was already good. So for me, feedforward is praise and feedback is criticism. And feedforward is, if you change this now and make it even better, you’ll come across as even more likeable, you’ll be even faster, you’ll be even — and I learned that from you, and that’s why — and I think that’s the problem most people have. If unspoken feedback comes, then it’s somehow discontent, or something where someone, I’ll say, has to get their discontent off their chest at us, and then also thinks they’re helping us. And that’s why I’ve crossed out this word feedback for myself. For me there’s only feedforward now.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. And I can gladly connect back to the authors’ breakfast here. I mean, that was the last one we had, with Michael Ehlers, because exactly this aspect, feedback and feedforward, so to speak, must have been a topic in the context of rhetoric and communication too. So whoever’s interested, feel free to listen to this authors’ breakfast on our podcast too. Sonja, you wanted to add something too.
Yes, I’ve had so many thoughts, I can’t fit them all in, but on the word with feedforward, on the point of feedforward, I wanted to say something more. A new impulse just came to me, namely that the word “feed” is in there, so the word “nourish” too. And no matter which direction it goes, it can be something that nourishes me. And I hadn’t had that thought before at all. And it only came now through this different way of looking at the term feedback, and also what connotations and associations it triggers in us. So I wouldn’t have had this really wonderful enrichment without this club, this room, house, I don’t even know what to call it, so without this round here. Wonderful. And then I wanted to connect back to something Alex asked earlier, with the facets, whether I meant that with the different roles. And I think the roles are actually an additional differentiation, namely of course we also have to show ourselves from different sides in certain roles too, but even when we meet people in the same role, they might pick up different facets of us and mirror them back to us too, and I think that’s actually the point I wanted to raise earlier. I hadn’t gotten into the different roles yet, which also has a bit to do with the fact that I fill different roles very, very similarly myself, which for me is part of my authenticity, that I’m not so very different in the different roles. But I understand it’s very appropriate to act differently in different roles, and that would sometimes do me good too. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. I heard someone else wanted to add something too. Yes, Layla, gladly.
Yes, I was just thinking, look, Yasemin, there’s a press code, and it’s kind of a thing, you’ve agreed on it. You’ve committed to informing people. And the press code, to my knowledge, isn’t completely legally nailed down. Now I was just thinking, because I find the term feedforward much, much, much better than feedback. And now I was just thinking, that has to do with how I express that. We can’t agree on values, well we can agree on values if we want, but in a community. But it’s not like, well, on human rights and so on, we can also say, in other countries it’s not the case, so what can we agree on, to get to the point. I was just thinking, one could consider for oneself, each individual for themselves, before giving feedback next time, whether you make a deal with yourself like that, that you have this inner obligation, that it’s a feedforward that moves the other person forward. And that I then think about how I express that. And I don’t exclude myself from that at all. Every piece of feedback I give, thank you again for the distinction, Yasemin, earlier — every piece of feedback I give is actually, well, I don’t know. I don’t think that’s something that always moves people forward. If I go into my private life now, if I tell someone, well, you’re always like that, well, how does a marriage work, never say always and never say never. Never take out the trash, always stupid. And does that move the other person forward? And now I was just thinking, I’m making a deal with myself now, that’s my insight from the room, through the reflection, that I intend for my feedback from now on to be a feedforward that moves the other person forward. Because it’s not like it doesn’t do anything at all. Sonja, you’re right, my teacher’s black pedagogy also achieved something. Suddenly next year a 6, unfortunately. Next year I had a 3 in math, because I was so angry. That doesn’t mean this feedback doesn’t work, if it’s different. The question is really, is it a feedforward? Because what I’ve learned in my life is, sometimes words are much, much, much more powerful than we think. And these beliefs we have in our heads, and things like that, they stay in our heads. And of course we’re not responsible for the other person, Yasemin. The question is just, what does it trigger in the other person, and do they then carry that around with them? And I don’t know. So I don’t think we’re responsible for what someone takes with them or takes in, or not, especially if the other person is indifferent to me. And yet I want to impose this inner obligation on myself now, that from now on I make sure it becomes a feedforward. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. And I think it’s important here again, regardless of how we call it — feedback is of course a set term, in quotes. Feedforward is simply a mnemonic for us, in quotes, that we can use, so to speak, to always keep in mind. If I give feedback about a certain behavior, it’s more goal-oriented, because that’s the background of why feedback is usually given, not just to criticize, but to also connect to something. So not just to look at what the behavior was and evaluate this behavior in some form, so to speak, but to look at what I can offer, serve the other person too. Namely by showing something, how they could maybe do it differently or better in the future, from my perspective. And this “from my perspective” is also really important in this context. So also not taking that as set or as law, so to speak, but also perceiving for yourself that it’s my perception. And interestingly, quite a while ago, I also had an event at a company in the context of feedback and feedback rules, and it’s partly really astonishing how deep this topic goes, and how hard it is for people to stay with themselves, especially in the context of the working world too. Or my boss does this and that. So I remember very well many, many questions that came up in the Q&A session too — but how do I deal with it when my boss constantly does this and that and so on, and here really always differentiating very, very clearly what I can influence, what I have influence over, what I can actually evaluate, how much of that is a portion where I can look at myself instead of the other person — so a lot, a lot of aspects come into play here. And we’re also very, very deeply in this aspect of self-perception, perception by others, and so on too. So I find it fascinating that through this feedback aspect, or feedforward aspect, we come back out again at the end here to this perception component too, which is what we actually started this morning with as a term, so to speak, I find that really, really fascinating. And before we go into the closing round, I’d like to pick up something from Ulli here too. I try to be situation-related in my statements. In nonviolent communication according to Marshall Rosenberg, this view gets trained — in this situation, right now, on this day, so in quotes, to show this switch too. General attributions aren’t helpful in my view. And really this aspect of attributions again. And by the way, attributions, and I’d like to mention this again before we go into the closing round, and then you can gladly make cross-connections again and highlight your highlights too — in relation to attributions I find it important again, attributions aren’t just from outside. Attributions are also ones we give ourselves. So looking at that here again too. Whenever I formulate with “I am neurodivergent,” as an example unfortunately, or I am a teacher, I am in sales, we’re really strongly in identities there. And that can also bring disadvantages in certain contexts, or lead to something that maybe isn’t wanted, isn’t wanted situationally. It can lead to me maybe not reflecting on certain things sufficiently, because I already dismiss it, in quotes, by saying I am XYZ. And in the sense of self-reflection and self-knowledge, it’s always important here to get out of these attributions again, and just observe the behavior and think about the behavior, try to recognize patterns and then look. There are definitely behavior patterns that are helpful in certain contexts and not in others. And then we neutralize the whole thing too. That means a behavior isn’t per se always bad or per se always good, but it also has — and then we’re at the context connection Ulli also brought in — it always also has something to do with context. That means a behavior that seems appropriate in one context, in my evaluation, after a corresponding reflection, can be a hindrance to me in another context. And that’s why it’s important to keep differentiating again and again, and open up these distinctions again and again, and not generalize, so to speak. That applies both to identities, to behavior, and so on. So I can open a lot of doors here. And with that let’s go directly into today’s closing round in the order: Marc, Sonja, Vera, Alex, Layla. I’m really curious. Marc.
I’ve thought about why I felt so comfortable in this room today and yesterday. And that’s because the discourse with you all isn’t shaped by this alpha-male behavior like in a lot of discussions. And I always notice that I feel much, much more comfortable in this kind of environment. A lovely day to you all.
Great, thank you so much. Sonja.
Wow, Marc, that deserves a really big, fat hug, because I can underline that so much. It’s exactly the same for me. I like the exchange here. It’s so rich, so appreciative. And I learn so, so much here, and I feel inspired. And what I take away today, even though I’d had the insight myself, but it just came through you all, that in feedback the word “feed,” nourish, is contained. And that’s amazing. Thank you.
Very, very lovely. Thank you so much. Vera.
Yes, I’m also referring to feedback, but not the professional part of course, but the private part too. And I find it very difficult, and maybe you shouldn’t even do it, giving unsolicited feedback, because I’m also signaling to the other person, I know better than you. I can judge it and I’ll tell you how it is. On the other hand, I think the most beautiful feedback is praise.
Oh yes, wonderful. Thank you so much, Alex.
Yes, thank you, Vera. That’s so lovely. Well, praise is incredibly important. I recently wrote something about the topic of recognition and praise too, and also what that does in our brain. And that’s also part of self-reflection, being able to praise yourself too, and acknowledge what great things you’ve done. I find that so important. And journaling helps me with that, for example. So in the evening I always look, what did I do well today? I really focus on what I did well. And how can I do it again tomorrow, or even better? Thanks for the great room today.
Yes, great, thank you so much. Layla?
I have to say briefly, I didn’t know my whole life which category I belong to, that’s why I mentioned that. Thank you anyway for your feedback though, because it was meaningful feedback and moves me forward. That means I’ve now categorized myself into a box, and now I have to see if I want to climb back out of it. To close, I’d like to say, my keyword is also feedback. Actually, that I ask myself, is it felt feedback that I’m giving? And the other thing I thought about is actually, maybe we can also be gentle toward the other person, because in nonviolent communication it’s said that behind every accusation is a need. And maybe we can also see it that way, that we then see the other person’s need, when we think about what this sentence they’re saying to me right now actually means. And what need is behind it, or behind them. And I find that an important point too. Thanks for listening.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. And I’d like to connect to that too, because that’s a really, really lovely point you brought up again, with being gentle toward the other person. And I’d like to add, and especially also being gentle with myself, because we very often forget that. And we can connect back to the authors’ breakfast here too. There it was about mistakes, for example, that get made, and similar, that we often classify as maybe I’ve failed or something. And here again, I found this so lovely with the wordplay, we’re not “gescheitert” [failed], but just cross out the T and say we’re “gescheiter” [wiser]. I’d like to pick that up again here too. And in different contexts we have our focus on these negative aspects too, and this focus quite consciously — that of course has to do with evolution and with our brain. It’s always about, does it secure my existence, does it improve my situation and so on — those are always the questions running in the background. And if I’m aware of that, then of course I can also, for example with helper tools like journaling, which Alex just mentioned, quite deliberately look at the positive aspects, so to speak, because I can use this self-efficacy for myself, that I quite deliberately direct my focus onto something I know I might otherwise not do sufficiently automatically. And that helps not just with myself, but with others too. So whenever I have the impulse to give feedback, for example, or give feedforward, also to look at what the actual message is, if I’m even tasked with giving feedback at all. I found that aspect really, really important too. We’ve picked that up in various rooms too. Because we often don’t have the mandate at all to give feedback. We just take that for ourselves. And personally, and many of you know my attitude toward this, I consider it a boundary violation when we keep taking this right for ourselves, or someone else takes this right for themselves, to constantly give us feedback that doesn’t seem appropriate at all, or similar. And so, always looking at that again here too. So various aspects we had now. On one hand really looking at quite deliberately directing my focus onto the positive. Even with feedback, feedforward, whatever we call it, looking in the direction of praise. So it’s not criticism we’re reflecting back, but how can I, or how can the other person, do it better? And also, what has the other person already done great? And not leaving that out either, that’s also one of the rules of feedback in general, by the way, mentioned. And then, when we talk about gentleness, about mistakes, about behavior, be careful with attributions, both outward and inward. And above all this gentleness. And I think that has such an incredible power, simply being gentle in how you deal with others and gentle in how you deal with yourself. Because it’s always a question of self-worth. What are you worth to yourself? How do you treat yourself, and how do you let yourself be treated? That’s the closing for the room today. I’m really looking forward to the continuation tomorrow morning with authenticity and self-knowledge. A tongue-twister of a word, I think. I’m curious how often I’ll stumble over it tomorrow. What role do honesty and authenticity play for insight and gaining insight, and for personal growth? That’s what we’ll talk about tomorrow at 8am here again in Deep Talk. So I’m really looking forward to that. Thank you so much, both on stage and via the chat. Really, really great contributions today. It was a wonderful exchange, an enriching exchange, certainly with something for everyone that can have a lasting effect. And then we can gladly continue and connect tomorrow. In that sense, I wish you all the best, and I’m looking forward to tomorrow. Until then. Ciao.
