Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: How are self-efficacy and insight connected — and can the belief that we can shape our own lives actually be learned? That’s the question we explore in Room #849 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme of “Insight (and gaining it).” Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…
Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.
A wonderful good morning. Today we continue with insight and self-efficacy. How are self-efficacy and insight, or gaining insight, connected? That’s what we want to talk about together today. And I’m already really curious what first impulses, thoughts on the topic come up for you. And in that sense you’re warmly invited today, as always, to join and open the reflection round together with us, to simply look together, based on first associations, thoughts you have, at which direction the room will take us today. And yes, as always, another quick reminder that a recording is running in the background today too, and that the whole thing will be published accordingly. So anyone who joins automatically agrees to that, and to the publication too. And we have three small room rules. One is a profile photo where you’re clearly recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. Anyone who doesn’t want that for whatever reason is warmly invited to simply use the chat to bring in thoughts, questions or similar via the chat, so we can pick that up along the way too. And with that I’d like to start the round. I’ll gladly repeat it for anyone who joined a bit later. Insight and self-efficacy is the topic we’re talking about together today. So how are self-efficacy and gaining insight actually connected? Or is there even a connection at all? What do you understand by that? And yes, in that sense I’m curious who’d like to join first this morning. Good morning, dear Marc.
Good morning to the round. Lovely to be here with you. And first of all, thank you, dear Yasemin, for moving the room from 6pm this evening to 8am this morning. I just saw that and was very happy that the room is happening as usual at 8. Yes, the topic of self-efficacy led me yesterday to a psychologist, Albert Bandura, of whom I’d unfortunately never heard before. Though I had heard of his findings, which I’d like to share with you gladly. The psychologist Albert Bandura is one of the psychologists who actually researched the topic of self-efficacy, and he came to the conclusion that self-efficacy is the trust of not being helplessly at the mercy of external circumstances, and the belief that I can have targeted influence on my environment, and of course also the feeling and trust that I myself can achieve something. I’d of course already heard this insight before in various rooms, and it’s already been shared by various people. I just didn’t know until now that it goes back to this Canadian psychologist Albert Bandura.
Yes, great. Thank you so, so much. And yes, so it’s also interesting to look at it a bit historically too. We’ve often talked about education in one room or another, but also picked up the whole thing historically and looked at it, so to speak. And there was a huge movement regarding what education actually is and so on. And in this context this term self-efficacy also comes up, so to speak. That means, what does it actually mean to lead a self-determined life, for example? And how can the whole thing be learned or acquired? And ultimately, in this context, it’s also about this self-efficacy, so shaping life itself, shaping freedom, and against the backdrop of course also knowing, who am I, who do I want to be and so on and so forth. So really exciting topics. And in that sense, thank you so, so much for choosing this as your entry point too. And yes, does self-efficacy also have something to do with insight and gaining insight for you?
Yes, I wanted to add, before I answer that, that it’s of course quite interesting, engaging with this topic. Through engaging with this topic you also see how far-reaching this topic is, that doctors deal with it too. And studies have shown that people, and that applies to me too, that people with a strong belief in their own competence have greater endurance in handling tasks, as well as in dealing with anxiety disorders and depression. And I had to smile at that, because the rooms keep bringing different topics together. Because if studies show that people with a stronger belief in their own competence get along better in life, then we’re immediately back at the topic of school, where actually it’s not necessarily the belief in your own competence that’s trained or reinforced, but rather it’s actually always first shown what we can’t do, in the form of grades and so on, and we’re actually always first shown how stupid we are and that other people are better, and I can’t remember the person standing at the front striving to strengthen us, so with the belief in our own competence, and to strengthen us that we’ll manage, and so on and so on. And it’s interesting how complex all the topics we discuss here are, and through these insights you gain from that, you then have new insights again and say, oh okay, in the system there’s still quite a bit that you could handle differently with this knowledge that already exists, and improve a lot of things still.
Yes, interesting. Thank you so, so much. I’ll come back to that in a moment. Just a quick reminder, please remember the three small room rules, one, a profile photo, first and last name and at least one sentence in your bio. And another quick reminder that the room is being recorded too. And anyone who doesn’t want that for whatever reason, please use the chat, and out of fairness, so to speak, the same applies to everyone. That means, even if I know you or similar, please make sure, if you’ve changed your profile photo or similar for some reason, that you’re also recognizable. Yes, and, yes, exciting point, dear Marc. And yes, there are so many topics. You just mentioned school, you mentioned the aspect of depression and such. But we can also pick up the topic in a relatively everyday context, because regarding something like stress or stress management too, it’s ultimately also about self-efficacy. And stress is something that affects all of us in some form. That means, how do I deal better with all these external influences, so to speak, at this point too? And what can I do to cope better with that? How can I establish the balance for myself? And these are various aspects that flow in here, so to speak. And in this context self-efficacy also plays a really, really big role in our everyday lives for everyone. Because in many places it’s about tensions we move within, so to speak, and again and again about the question, how can I best deal with certain things. And here it’s important, also in the sense of self-efficacy, to have techniques, strategies or similar too, to ultimately be able to deal with it. And that of course also presupposes that I engage with certain topics too, and maybe also acquire generally applicable knowledge in that regard, or techniques, methods and so on. And above all, though, maybe also the insight that it’s even necessary to engage and deal with certain topics at all. Layla, a wonderful good morning. What do you say about the topic?
A wonderful good morning. I just thought about it for myself again, so what did I just say, so what is self-efficacy? Self-efficacy is the belief in one’s own abilities. Do I have that right? I don’t know. What do you say? Is that it? Well for me, I once did a test in my studies, that was the teacher training program, where we were supposed to test our self-efficacy, and there were sentences like “do you believe that you’ll do this well, that things will turn out well” and so on. And when I just heard a school experience, I thought, that’s a very generalized judgment. I’m also very sorry that it was like that for you. You know I’m a teacher. Because of that I hope it’s different nowadays, for many people at least. I also know you can have experiences like the ones you had. I’m 44 and I still had other experiences in school too. So it wasn’t just about evaluation, and I thought to myself internally, it wasn’t always the person standing at the front either, but rather it’s a community, it’s a forced community. And that’s already the outside, because if we think about it, children think very little about it when they do something, which doesn’t mean they don’t take long, they don’t think for long about whether it’s good or not. Because, for example, I think shame is a learned behavior. And what occurred to me in this context is, I once wanted to join a music club. And it wasn’t the teacher who was the reason I said, I won’t do that. I even sang a song by Die Ärzte in sixth grade. I only got a B-minus. Doesn’t matter. But I got to sing a Die Ärzte song. The reason was actually—
Layla, quick note, there’s a rustling potato chip bag in the background.
Oh god, is it better now? Sorry. Keep talking.
Yes, much better.
I’ll hold my mic now. Sorry about that. No, but I have to shorten this a bit too. No, what I’m getting at is, it was actually the others. And I don’t mean the others as in the mean, mean classmates, but often it’s the environment that gives us the feeling, you can’t do that properly, because we’re social beings and use others as a mirror. And that’s why we should handle very reflectively what feedback we give someone, so they can achieve their self-efficacy. And of course we should help them along the way, but it should really go in the direction that it can be a development. And I didn’t sing that day and I never joined a club. But what I did yesterday, I went shopping yesterday and had headphones in my ears. And then I sang along. Not too loud, because you’re not allowed to do that. That’s very embarrassing, you might be thought crazy. But every now and then a little bit. Decades ago, years ago, I wouldn’t have dared to do that. That means, I think I’ve developed my self-efficacy. And yes, that’s what I wanted to share, because I think that’s an important point. I believe it’s the others, not necessarily the ones who mirror us, that influence our self-efficacy. It’s often school, and that’s why in pedagogy you also learn techniques so that you don’t do that negatively, and that the evaluation shouldn’t be negative. I don’t want to take anyone’s experiences away because of this, because I believe it’s true. Still, I believe we all have influence on others and their self-efficacy. Thanks for listening.
Yes, thank you so, so much. I’m curious what Marc says about that too. You asked at the start whether it’s the belief in your own abilities. From my perspective it’s far more than that. Marc, what do you say to that? What all belongs to self-efficacy for you?
It’s important to me that we stay on topic. And that’s why I emphasize again, not finger-pointing. I knew that when we talk about school and teachers, that wasn’t meant meanly either, but I’m bringing a new term into play. Self-efficacy, in Bandura’s research, means that we have the ability for self-regulation. And if I know I have abilities for self-regulation, I can’t finger-point and say, I am the way I am because this or that person did something wrong. That was just an example that there are things to improve, where we can support people who don’t yet have the knowledge or haven’t heard what significance self-efficacy and self-regulation can have, what a fantastic effect that can have. Because self-regulation helps us with exactly what you just mentioned, dear Yasemin, how we deal with news too. Whether we want to kill ourselves because our partner left us, or whether we’re totally devastated because we lost our job. And if we know that self-efficacy and self-regulation, so that we ourselves have active influence on the evaluation of emotional states, then that’s an insight I wish I’d had at 20, or ideally even earlier. It would have changed my life in that regard. But it doesn’t help to always finger-point, I am the way I am because of him or her or the others. And the insight Albert Bandura also had is that if we learn from that, if we know about this self-efficacy and this self-regulation, then we have the opportunity, by also learning, by observing other people, by taking role models, and then through this attractive learning, we have the opportunity to work on our self-efficacy and our self-regulation too, by observing others.
Yes, thank you so, so much. And ultimately, you just said it, the ability for self-regulation, so to speak. And that first has to be learned. So a child doesn’t bring that with them per se, but it’s something we learn over time. And this ability for self-regulation accompanies us then too. Then we’re back at lifelong learning, so to speak. That means, we’re never finished with the ability for self-regulation at some point, but for example external influences like newer technologies, which make something new necessary in the working world for us too, skills and so on. That means I always need the ability for self-regulation again and again. And self-regulation yesterday isn’t maybe the same as today or tomorrow in that context. That means, it’s not a process that’s somehow completed, but rather it’s about, on one hand, learning, learning processes, and on the other hand environmental conditions and so on that come along too over time, so it’s also a never-ending story, so to speak, to keep going here too and not be finished at some point or similar. And so on one hand there are various institutions that play a role here, whether that’s daycare, whether that’s school as an institution, then later secondary schools, universities, up to further education too, quite classically further education, also in the work context for example. And all of that is, or should be, at least should be, whether they always are, that’s up for debate, form the framework, so to speak, to enable learning, to develop abilities for self-regulation. So that’s ultimately what it’s about. Layla, would you like to follow up on that?
Yes, gladly. I just need to check, because I just thought about how I came up with this thought. But I learned this in my studies, and I know Mr. Bandura from my studies, and he said, self-efficacy is understood as a person’s conviction that they can successfully cope with even difficult situations and challenges through their own power. So that’s from PH Zurich. That’s correct, and what you all said, of course self-regulation belongs to it, and I just wanted to add, so it wasn’t finger-pointing, the others are like this and that and therefore, but Yasemin, you said it correctly, you have to enable that. And if, as a young person, and that’s why I said children are like a sponge, because children are like a sponge, it’s incredibly important how I shape learning processes, and no matter where this learning process happens, whether that’s in training and we’re constantly learning, we’ve talked about lifelong learning too, and that’s why I also brought up this feedback, because I think it’s important how I give this feedback. And yes, I’d like to distance myself a bit from the term finger-pointing now, because I know, Marc, you didn’t mean it that way, because I think it’s really about, how can I enable the tip for the other person, how do I give them this feeling that they — because we’re often, often, Yasemin, because then you have to go the extra mile, then you just have to try harder. And as often as I heard the sentence “try harder” in my youth, I try incredibly hard. And children also often try very hard themselves. You just have to see how they can steer themselves so it goes in the right direction. And that’s why this feedback, which in school is a grade — and we can gladly discuss whether that’s good or bad now. That’s just the current state, which will also be changed, though. And that you look at how you develop your self-efficacy, how you go into self-regulation, without the head becoming a battlefield. And it’s not about the other person as the guilty party, it’s actually about how you can shape learning processes for lifelong learning.
Yes, correct.
Yes, how can you present that correctly, or how can you do it correctly? And that was actually addressed to everyone. We learn something every day, something good or something bad. From everyone, always, I think.
Yes, thank you so, so much. And I think, ultimately, there are various aspects that play a role here. It’s not just feedback. So we could also completely move away from performance, from performance thinking, so to speak. Then we’re in the realm of qualification, and we could, for example, pick up this point too, and that also counts as part of self-efficacy. So how do I gain self-efficacy, the belief in my abilities and so on and so forth, by simply having positive experiences. So a small child as an example, learning to walk — I don’t have to say, you have to try harder now or whatever, but I can just cheer them on by saying, yes, great job, try again, or similar. Or I just let it run. So I don’t even have to give encouragement, the child will still learn. But how does it learn? Simply by doing it, that’s one thing. And the other is also having positive experiences, namely through the positive experience also being encouraged again to try new things. And there we’re also clearly at, on one hand we have the role model function, on the other hand we have imitation. So there are a lot of factors that play in here, so to speak, so that this belief in your own ability is also strengthened. And then, over time for example, self-confidence gets built up too. That means, if I’ve had positive experiences in the past, that even if I couldn’t do something yet, that I then tackled it and was able to learn it and then also managed it, yes, then I can of course also transfer that to some extent to new situations in the future too. That means, then I maybe have less fear of new things or new topics too, of just tackling and trying them. Whereas if I’ve had negative learning experiences, for example, it’s noticeably harder for me to possibly try something new, because I first, well, maybe have moments of failure as an experience. We’re emotional beings after all. That means I’ve stored certain experiences here that might, to protect myself from this pain experience — that hurt — hold me back a bit. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it stops me, but maybe I just need a few minutes longer or a few days longer or a few weeks longer to tackle it too, and some never tackle it at all. So that exists too, of course. Marc, Layla, did you want to follow up on that? Layla, that was you. I didn’t see it correctly just now.
Yes, gladly. So, wait, let me hold the mic, that works better. Yes, I think that’s exactly a point, because if you engage with learning theories — I’m also very grateful that you said that. I think that’s, well, let’s go into coaching or if we look at it, the art of positive thinking. What’s all that based on? It’s all, try to change your perspective. And a perspective is — and I don’t want to say it’s finally fixed, because we’re also fluid beings. So not that we’re liquid, even though we consist of water. Okay, I have to make sure I don’t stray too far from the topic. In any case, I believe positive experiences are important. If you look at children who are in a sports club, who have certain experiences, who learn an instrument, it’s often talked about that they learn discipline and they learn that. And what do they learn? They also learn frustration tolerance, dealing with failures. They also learn to celebrate their own successes. They learn to know their self-efficacy, that they can achieve something through their own power. And I think that’s a thing you have to do. You have to give children, teenagers and adults positive experiences, which doesn’t mean we should fall into toxic positivity and tell everyone, wow, you did that really great, wonderful, super, super, the whole time, because I don’t know if that only leads to successes. That doesn’t mean we have to blame someone. Maybe you can tell me a bit about that. I always try to reinforce. So it’s this promoting and demanding thing. And I think that’s a bit of a balancing act, that you take the right path, that you enable someone to develop, but also see their development. The example with the child I found really nice, because I once saw that with Vera Birkenbihl too. Children don’t think about that kind of thing. You don’t need to go “woohoo, wow, so great, you crawled, wow, now you’re first.” Of course we celebrate that. The child would probably do that too. But I think if you tell the child “no, you should do this better now. No, you should do it this way now.” Who would come up with the idea of telling a child learning to walk, well I think you should now, no, take the right leg. And I think these are points where we can all point the finger at ourselves. How do we shape learning processes for others? How do we do that? And you also said it’s not just about feedback. And I think it’s important that we go in a direction there. And what I keep thinking about is how we can give especially young people the opportunity to have positive experiences. Not everyone can do that in a sports club. Not everyone has that opportunity. Of course you can say, well, that’s all possible. But I think here too you can train people, where you can have positive experiences. And maybe that’s an important point.
Yes, thank you so, so much. And I’d also like to give a reminder, we’re at this point in the week now where we also want to shift the focus more strongly onto this self-knowledge again, so to speak. That means self-efficacy, the self is already in there too. Let’s look at that again too. We’re not just looking at how I enable this for others, but first for myself. So setting the framework for myself, so how do I treat myself, how do I give myself feedback. We do that too, by having thoughts, talking to ourselves or whatever. So maybe looking at the self again too. And not everyone is in this learning situation where we might also enable that externally, so to speak, but at least regarding ourselves too, also because, against the backdrop that we also want to pick up this aspect of leadership and self-leadership tomorrow too, and look at it from various perspectives again too. And in this context I’d also like to welcome Sonja and Raphael, and then let’s see if we can make cross-connections again. Sonja.
Yes. A wonderful good morning to the round. Yes, regarding insight and self-efficacy, an example from this week comes to mind. That was a day when I was quite nervous and restless and hadn’t really gotten into my power. And I knew there was a bike event that evening. And I knew, when we’re physically active, when we get into social contact, that we can also raise our energy through that and combat this inner restlessness with it. And then in the evening, as that time approached, I slowly drove over, hoping the group would actually be there and that we’d ride. And we did that. The group was there. There was this bike tour. We rode 40 kilometers together. And I actually experienced what I’d assumed. The pain went away. I felt connected again. I felt comfortable in my skin. I was glowing again. And that was a very strong feeling of self-efficacy, that I knew what I could do to try it and then have the experience that it really worked. And that’s an excellent example for me, an excellent experience too, that keeps reinforcing for me that I am self-efficacious, that I can take my moods into my own hands, that it’s not 100 percent determined from outside, but that I can very well influence it. Not 100 percent, but to a very large extent. I can decide myself whether I stay in a feeling and wallow in it or even pity myself, or whether I decide to steer against it and take targeted measures that help me feel differently. That’s insight and self-efficacy at the same time for me. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so, so much. I don’t know what it is right now, I find it so funny, we’ve had this situation several times now where I’ve said, I just wrote something about this topic yesterday, and suddenly we have all these topics. So you see how interwoven this all is too. Because I wrote about the topic of stress and stress management yesterday, and exactly these components are contained in it too, which you also picked up, Sonja. So, first four areas we can influence at this point, and where that also makes sense, because we can also deal with stress management with it, and this can also wonderfully be transferred here. Those are the areas behavior, movement, relaxation and nutrition, which have a massive leverage effect here. With behavior it’s about thinking and acting positively. And by thinking and acting positively I don’t mean “cha-cha-cha,” but by thinking and acting positively I mean something like, it’s about a change of perspective. So was there something good despite the bad too? Can you see the positive without disqualifying the negative? For example through forgiveness, or that also includes quite concrete techniques of cognitive behavioral change or so-called cognitive restructuring. So I try to think in stress situations, is there something I can learn, or can I see a situation differently too? Do I have a cognitive distortion at that point? Am I exaggerating, am I understating, or am I assuming things about the future without really being able to predict them, that’s this area. Then movement is, I think, relatively clear, we could talk about how much and so on, but I think in general movement has an effect too, through all the hormone cocktails we then have running in the background, which then also have a positive effect on that. That means, that’s also certainly something that co-steers self-efficacy here too. Then we have the aspect of relaxation, which ultimately also contributes to me, if I regularly go into relaxation, finding my inner center and so on. That can also be in combination with sport, that you then also, how do I put it best, stress energy gets released there, for example. Especially in situations where I have a challenging situation ahead of me, where I’m preparing for it or similar, and that’s maybe also accompanied a bit by fear, because it represents a new challenge or something. Then we have nutrition, which also plays a role. Namely, depending on whether I eat more fast food or something, I also have influence again on whether stress builds up or whether stress hormones build up or not. And accordingly, those are the four areas that can also be very, very nicely transferred to self-efficacy, basically. And that means, in this way we have the opportunity, on one hand to steer emotions, on the other hand to steer a stress level, also for new challenges, situations that await us. And exactly these aspects are contained in that too. So on one hand reinterpretation, on the other hand the topic of movement. And you notice again and again here, these are basically some basic functions of the body that we can keep picking up and transferring in various directions. That’s why I find that so exciting right now, because it’s also demonstrated very nicely here. And with that I’d like to give Raphael the opportunity to dock in too.
Yes, thank you Yasemin. Good morning everyone. Hello. Yasemin, to add to what you just said, nutrition is of course also a decisive influencing factor for relaxation. That means, if you eat too late in the evening or something, you don’t have the rest phase the way you’ve earned it. And that’s quite exciting. Yes, and the topic of self-efficacy is of course super exciting. On one hand I could say something now as a self-employed person, when something doesn’t work, how do you get the cart out of the mud again? Or you can go through health problems, where you say, I had surgery, and then I was in rehab afterward. Then on one hand there was the team that watched to get fit and out again as quickly as possible. The other team that celebrated and licked their wounds and thought, how do I go from three weeks to six weeks of rehab? That’s mega exciting. That’s the experience you have, from primary contact, from when you’re born, what are you born into, how does the network around your family handle it and what do they teach you? And that’s exactly the mega exciting thing, how you go through life self-efficacious or not self-efficacious or differently self-efficacious.
Yes, thank you so, so much, and I’m really curious what the others want to add or make cross-connections to now too. The question that’s still relevant for me now, to build the bridge back to the room, is to pick up this aspect of insight again too. So to what extent does self-efficacy also have something to do with insight? Is it, for example, the positive experience I have that leads to the insight and also leads to the self-confidence there, for example? Or how is that all connected, so to speak, at this point too? Layla, gladly.
So I found Sonja’s point really important too, and also what you brought up. Raphael said it correctly, at the latest when we get to rehab, comes the point where people tell us, or well, when we then have a stay, now go into your physicality, get out of your head. And I think those are important points. I’d asked the question too, what do you do when you think too much? At an authors’ breakfast I remember, and then I was also told, I should go into physicality. I think those are points. What you all mentioned with nutrition is a very, very important point. And I just thought about what was a point for me. Because I think self-efficacy also has a lot to do with self-perception. That you perceive yourself and not just perceive externally. That’s why I also thank you for the hint you gave. I think self-efficacy also means that I look into myself, without listening too much into myself. What Sonja said triggered something in me, when she said that you shouldn’t go into this wallowing. I know I’m paraphrasing you wrong, but I think the point was that you don’t wallow in your own suffering, I think that’s what you meant. In my rehab I learned that I should also, or, also perceive feelings and give them space. That means, I should listen into myself, without listening too much into myself, to then give these feelings room, live them out, and with these other components find a way to go into self-efficacy. Because I think a phenomenon of our time is that we try to function. Raphael also said it, I know that from my brother too, who’s self-employed too, self and employed. You have few breaks and we’re in such an automatism that we function. And I’m not saying now we should all sit like Zen monks and just meditate, eat something good, because fast food, the microbiome is supposed to improve the immune system, is supposed to have effects on behavior. That’s why I find those very important points too. No, but you shouldn’t forget yourself, that you can go into self-efficacy. And that’s something I learned in my rehab, for example, that I shouldn’t suppress that in order to function. Which I think doesn’t just affect me, but many people. Because how many people do I know who should actually call in sick and still go to work anyway. My brother can’t even call in sick. He’d have to call in sick to himself. And I think those are important points that have a lot to do with self-efficacy. Just as an impulse. Now I’m curious what Jürgen says.
Yes, thank you so, so much. Let’s really bring in Jürgen too, and then we can gladly look, especially regarding this aspect of emotions, to look at that more closely too. Jürgen, a wonderful good morning.
A wonderful good morning, dear ones. Thank you, thank you too, Layla. Normally I don’t like saying something or coming up on stage if I wasn’t there from the very beginning, and I hope, or rather I ask you to bear with me, if I say or position something that maybe was already discussed. But I’d like to build on the point, dear Yasemin, that you addressed at the end, restoring this connection between self-efficacy and insight. And admittedly I’m maybe taking a rather wide arc now, namely the arc to an overarching theme we had recently, and that was education. And after knowledge and agreement that there’s hardly a general, universally valid definition, we defined three positions of what education is. And those were the positions self-determination, self-regulation and self-actualization. Self-regulation has already come up today, at least in the chat, as I saw, from Marc. And I’d like to try to make this connection between self-determination as a component of education toward the topic of insight and self-efficacy. And I’ll now postulate that I personally don’t see these three terms, self-determination, self-regulation and self-actualization, as a kind of, well, in the context of synonyms, but for me that’s a process, a development process, that finally leads to education, which enables us to lead a happy life, or to give life a meaning. And now at the first point, and that’s how I get to the topic connection to insight. At the first point, self-determination, this verbal warning very often comes up, “know thyself.” I don’t define the term now in the sense of “being determined” and “determining something,” but determining yourself and seeing yourself, that’s something Layla just mentioned too. And there I fall back on one of my favorite idols, which some of you surely already know, and that’s dear Mr. Goethe, who was one of the really essential advocates of, and counterpoint-setter against, this “know thyself.” Namely for the simple reason that he said — I’m not quoting him word for word now, I don’t have that in my head, but paraphrased — if you want to know yourself. And if you have the striving to know yourself, which is basically necessary, you have to know the world. That means, he’s thereby postulating the necessity of not just directing the gaze at the I-reference, but at the we-reference. Marc has actually already represented this position quite often, by saying or having said, we all have a role on this world stage we move within. Absolutely right, dear Marc. We play a role, we’re an actor on this world stage, but we’re not solo performers, but exactly like a play, exactly like a stage, that functions with few exceptions only as an ensemble. And to now get to the heart of the matter, that’s the actual state of insight for me from the first stage toward education, namely self-determination, that I recognize that I don’t just have to know myself, but that I have to know myself in the context of what surrounds me. So besides the I-field also the we-field. And that’s one of the essential prerequisites for me to finally arrive at a self-efficacy too. The objective, unbiased assessment of myself and in my environment. I hope that wasn’t too long, and yes, I’m curious how the discussion continues around that. Thank you.
Yes, thank you so, so much. I saw, Raphael, that you’d like to say something.
I’d like to follow up again. Namely, Jürgen, I’d already picked this up, actually, with education too, that we already had this overarching theme and talked about it. Still I find it good that you picked it up again, because we always have listeners who join later too. So in that sense it’s always nice to have repetitions too. I don’t find that wrong at all at this point, and I’m totally with what you opened up here again too, with the I and the we, and here again funnily enough — a few days ago I also wrote something down again on the topic of learning and education. And here too, and we had this under this overarching theme too, and I’d like to pick that up as an addition, because it also underlines this last aspect with the I and the we-thought you brought up. Namely it was about, in this overarching theme, this, also the political dimension of the concept of education, so whether it even has a political dimension at all, this concept of education. And the answer to that, I’ll read it to you briefly, it’s relatively short. As already explained, self-determination is a central term of education. But now the respective self-determination can’t be viewed socially isolated from others. That’s why my self-determination has to be thought of in accordance with the self-determination of the others I’ll also deal with in the future, so in the sense of a shared future. That’s why it’s also about a shared self-determination. So self-determination, the term “self” is in there, but it’s about a shared self-determination. And there’s been a term for that since the Enlightenment, the term democracy. With that, the democracy requirement is built into the concept of education, namely to jointly determine the future themselves, and through discourse. That in turn is the principle in parliament, so the basic idea, that the free word and the better argument, exchanged in parliament, determines how all our futures will be, or how politics gets made. Therefore the term or the norm of self-determination can’t be viewed individualistically isolated, but only socially and societally. Maybe that as an addition again, and also as an impulse or reminder. And then I’m really curious. Now we have, yes, yes, now everyone wants to say something. So first Raphael, he was the first to speak up, then Marc, then Layla, Jürgen gladly.
Yes Jürgen, thanks. So if I ever have something complex that needs to be summed up, I’m sure I can contact you. And yes, it’s certainly a process with self-efficacy. Exactly, you develop, you’re not self-efficacious once you’re there, but it’s really the development and the experience from positive events. I can say that clearly. There was so much again now. I’m out now and I’ll pass it on to someone who still knows exactly what they want to say. But I’d still have quite a bit. The whole thing actually calls for Robert Dilts’s logical levels. Exactly, that’s where the things we’re all discussing are contained. I-field, we-field, environment, and behavior, abilities, identity and spirituality. You can really unpack a lot there, and it’s also a really, really exciting topic especially in the topic of personality, I really have to say, or recommend it. And what I still wanted to say, and this is the last thing now, personality, what Goethe represents or something, I’m totally on that side and consider the whole thing a dynamic happening too. That means we’re personalities that happen dynamically, that change, and that aren’t the same. And the same applies to our roles too. So an exciting topic too. But unfortunately time here is too limited. And so on. Bye.
Yes, thank you so, so much. And maybe at this point already, not again, but already, a hint. In a few weeks we’ll come back to this too, and we’ll open up this societal aspect again too under a different overarching theme, to build that bridge again too. Maybe that as an announcement already. Marc.
Dear Jürgen, thank you so, so much for your contribution. I had to smile. I’ve just gone through an inner process. I underlined everything and took notes, and your last sentence, that you said, that I not only have to know myself, but also what surrounds me. There I thought, yes, great. That’s right. Although I then come back to self-efficacy, because if I know, and that’s also an excuse, if I know that I also have to recognize what surrounds me, that also leads to many people thinking, well, I have no self-efficacy at all. Topic environment, if I rely on what surrounds me, I can’t do anything at all, because the others are to blame. Why should I contribute to environmental improvement if the others pollute it, and and and. And that’s why I think it’s totally important that we also rely on this self-efficacy at the same time, because only if we’re effective for ourselves, even in really, really small points, can there also be change processes. And still I underline what you said. I just don’t want us to use an excuse for ourselves, when we make the environment responsible, so to speak, that we can’t be self-efficacious ourselves at all, because if we don’t do that, so aren’t self-efficacious, then we don’t have our fate in our own hands again, then we’re a plaything of our emotions again and so on, and then we’re a plaything of others again. Thanks.
I’m sure Jürgen will want to say something more about this. Before that, gladly Layla first and then Jürgen.
Yes, Jürgen, I also wanted to thank you very warmly, because you really cleared the fog. And I like that you like Goethe. I like him too. And that actually brings our discussion from the beginning together a bit, because that’s what Marc said at the end with this “I and we,” and I think we see this “I and we” too separated nowadays. We live, in my view, and I think also in the view of many other people, in an age of individualism. That means we’ve moved away from this “we,” those up there, those down there. From the absolutist sole ruler we went to the “we,” and now we’re back at the “I.” Self-determination has something to do with determination. And all the books I’ve read so far, well not all, but many books I’ve read so far in today’s time, have a lot to do with the search for meaning. They also have a lot to do with self-determination, yes a lot to do with self. And that’s why I thought it was really important that you said this “we,” because I think we have to think about it together again, the way you said in your article, Yasemin, that it really, that one can’t be without the other under certain circumstances. I don’t know, that’s not how you said it. That’s now something, I think that’s now something I’d say, that one needs the other. Or did you say it that way after all? I don’t know anymore. And I think we have to see it more as a duality and not as a decision. Either there’s the I or the we. And I think that’s a phenomenon of the time, of individualism, that we think, well either I determine myself or the others determine me, and maybe I need one and the other, and the others are a mirror. But I don’t have to accept all of that, and I also don’t have to accept everything that’s in my head, and I can look at it, oh is that something I’ve seen in this mirror? Is that something someone once said to me? Do I want to accept that? And the search for meaning is something really, really great, but yes, we also need the we. Maybe it’s also meaningful to do something for others.
Yes, thank you. Very briefly, yes, that was meant that way. So it’s not an either-or, but it really needs both, and with the aspect of meaning too. Here too we can say, is it about an individualistic giving of meaning, or is it also about a shared giving of meaning? And if we, for example, thought about Germany just now, then we’re also talking about a giving of meaning for Germany, for example. So what’s the vision of this country? There we’re in the community too. Maybe that as an addition then. Jürgen.
Yes, thank you. I have two positions. First regarding Mark’s remarks. I’d like to build on that and just point out again that both self-determination and the process of self-determination, “know thyself and know your we-field,” run on both levels at the level of communication. You maybe know my saying, if I know myself, I hold a self-conversation, and a self-conversation requires an intelligent partner. Determining my position within the we-environment isn’t a one-way street from me with a parabolic mirror onto what surrounds me, but an active dialogue with the person or people who surround me. I just wanted to say that for clarification again. And the second thing, I don’t want to draw this out too long now, time is short, but I just want to make sure, what you presented, dear Yasemin, at the end, did that come from your own pen?
Yes, yes.
Then hats off, then hats off, sorry if I’m interrupting you, then hats off, because you could actually have been the pen-pal of that very Mr. Goethe, or also of a Stuart Mill. Those were the apologists for me who not only developed toward liberalism as a result of the French Revolution, but who were also, for me, the spiritual fathers of holistic thinking, and of trying to detach yourself from the capsule, and now I’ll close, again with a quote from my great idol, trying to recognize what holds the world together at its innermost core, and not searching for what am I. Thank you.
Yes, very, very cool. Thank you so, so much. And maybe as an addition or small correction here. So it is from my own pen, nonetheless it’s of course also based on what I’ve learned and acquired over the many years, so to speak, of studying and self-study and brought together. That means basically these are of course not newly thought things, but somewhere, at some point taken over again or brought together. I just find it very, very important, especially, and that’s why I already announced earlier that we’ll talk about these societal aspects again in a few weeks, and I’ll make this connection again too. Especially against the backdrop of the political discussions that have kept happening for many weeks, months now, and so on, and where we’re currently heading, it’ll gain relevance again in these rooms here under the corresponding overarching theme, which I won’t reveal yet, but look forward to it already. And there I find it important, especially now when we observe, to build the bridge here again briefly — we see this extreme individualistic thinking everywhere in the foreground, whether that’s Gen Z or whatever. The discussions about the four-day week or maybe even just a four-hour week or similar. Yes, you can drive that into the immeasurable, so to speak, into the extreme. And, or if we look at company decisions or something. That means, here again and again, on one hand, yes, it makes sense to look at it individualistically too. And that’s also important, that I know who I am, what I want and so on. And at the same time also, in the sense of the society we live in, to think communally too. And then the aspect of sustainability comes into it too. Because if I only look at it in isolation, then that ultimately can’t lead anywhere in the long run. Because we have connections, networks and chain reactions everywhere. And that has to be thought along with it here. That’s a really, really important aspect at this point. Wolfgang, let’s bring you in now. Thank you for your patience. And afterward we’ll go directly into the closing round, and then everyone can gladly make cross-connections again, if they’d like. Wolfgang.
Yes, good morning to the round, and thank you for your super, super great and valuable contributions. I wanted to add a point from my perspective, and I’d like to expand the room title a bit, namely to insight, acceptance and self-efficacy. And let me briefly, for example, from my own life — two and a half years ago I had a serious accident with really bad diagnoses and prognoses, up to amputations. Happy ending is, today I’m restored to almost 100 percent and there are no lasting damages. But what I wanted to say is, I noticed, I was operated on for many, many hours, and the professor who did that is more of a pragmatic type, he comes into the room with his entourage, pulls the bandage off, says “ah, all great” and is gone again. And right at the very end of the process, after over two years of operations, 800 hours of physio etc., he once looked me really deeply in the eyes and said, Mr. Jung, 30 percent of the achievement your body has made, I did. 70 percent you accomplished, because you recognized what happened to your body, because you accepted that certain things no longer work, and because you then went into effectiveness yourself. That’s exactly what he said. That touched me deeply and of course fits perfectly into this room too, because I think this physical experience, which I’ve now expanded, so to speak, to accept the moment and accept the situation, can also be brought into the metaphysical or spiritual realm, or into the emotional level in general. And that’s why my impulse, insight, acceptance, and then self-efficacy. Thanks.
Yes, thank you so, so much. That’s a really important aspect you’re raising. I don’t like to use the term acceptance in this context so much, because for me it somewhat suggests that I’m approving it or whatever. But that’s my very personal view, everyone has to decide that for themselves. In this context I like to speak of “accepting” [annehmen, in the sense of receiving/taking on]. And we’ve had that in many contexts, so accepting the situation first as it is, quite neutrally, neither overvaluing, undervaluing nor anything else. And this overinterpreting or overvaluing or something, also regarding future scenarios etc., we already addressed that today too. And then, once I’ve accepted that, I can look at what contribution I can make here now. Where do I have influence on it, where do I not have influence on it? The area of influence is also a really relevant one. We often get annoyed in business contexts about things we possibly have no influence on at all. There I might be able to leave the company, that would be my sphere of influence, but it’s not that I can change the framework. Then I just have to decide whether I stay or leave and look for something else, or whether I make peace with the thought that it’s the way it is. But here again, ultimately going from that back into self-efficacy, so to speak, and often based on, going along with, a decision I make. Namely, what do I want to do with the situation now, or how do I want to change something and how do I change it for myself. And this moment of decision, I already picked that up once before, that there are research findings from the medical field, where people were actually accompanied and studies with people who had a drastic experience, namely paraplegia, and how they deal with that. And what’s interesting is that actually, after this process of accepting and then deciding, in whatever direction, something like happiness and satisfaction can suddenly set in again, because I’ve then accepted the situation and then, based on that, so to speak, make the decision of what I now want to do next. That’s another really important aspect where I’d like to build the bridge again. Yes, and with that let’s gladly move into the closing round. Just gladly in order. Marc, Layla, Sonja, Raphael, Jürgen, Wolfgang. Gladly make a cross-connection again, if you want. Otherwise the closing word for today.
Listening to you as intelligent partners, because I let myself get involved, led me to euphoria today through being self-efficacious. A good start to the weekend.
Great, thank you, Marc. Layla?
I wanted to say, I gained insights today too, namely it was confirmed for me that the historical image of humanity has developed from we to I. And I’m thinking about whether we should move more back into dialogue, so not from I to we, but that we should look at seeing a duality. And Jürgen, I also wanted to say what I realized, a dialogue, even with yourself, needs not just an intelligent, but also an active listener, because that’s what makes it a dialogue. Thanks for listening.
Thank you so, so much. Sonja.
There were a lot of really nice impulses today that enriched me a lot. What I liked very much was, at the end, Wolfgang’s term acceptance. For me it’s completely neutrally charged. So for me that’s identical, synonymous with accepting. And also your term, Yasemin, that you brought in too, the decision, making the decision to even want to change something at all. I found that very enriching. And the point that we have to see ourselves in context, not just who am I, but what effect does that have on my environment and who is my environment? That was really wonderfully enriching today, and I thank you for that. I’m sitting right now by a pond and starting the weekend with the sun and with you. So sun outside and inside. And I thank you for that and wish you a nice weekend.
Yes, great, thank you so, so much. Raphael.
Yes, words fail me. I’m looking forward to the weekend, and it was really a super brilliant round that I’ll certainly still be chewing on over the weekend, and I’m looking forward to Hütter tomorrow morning. I’m really looking forward to that. That’s neuro-stuff again, and that’s not bad at all. So I wish you a nice Saturday. Until tomorrow. Ciao.
Yes, that’ll be great. I’ll say more about that in a moment too. Jürgen.
Yes, let me just briefly, thank you all. It was nice that I still found my way into your discourse. Heartfelt thanks for that. Also once more to you, Wolfgang, as the last one to take a position, with, I think, a really apt and moving statement, which I can only agree with. I wish you all a nice weekend, and a quick question, Sonja, where is “sun” [Sonne, wordplay on her name]?
Near Braunschweig.
Then you can write yourself in front of us. Okay, nice weekend. Thank you so, so much. Wolfgang.
My insight from today is that it’s always incredibly wonderful to be in your rooms, Yasemin, because you also moderate so wonderfully. That’s a load-bearing pillar of these conversations. And my conclusion is, I hardly know a room, neither digitally nor in real life, so to speak, that brings me into self-efficacy more than these rooms here with you. And for that I thank you all very warmly.
Oh, how lovely. Thank you so, so much. I’m really happy, both about the exchange we had today, and also the many bridges we built. Sometimes I have the impression it’s getting more and more complex, because now, since we’ve already picked up many topics and gone into depth too, these bridges naturally keep needing to be built again and again, so that these connections can also be made. At the same time it’s totally important, especially for the listeners who might be joining for the first time, to bring them along too. On the other hand, repetition is also always sensible, so we can reactivate our neural network again at this point too, and really pick up this or that again too, and also show how all these aspects are connected with each other. And it’s not for nothing that I’ve been writing a lot of articles recently. I have a surprise for you there too. Though I won’t reveal the secret yet. You’ll have to be a little patient there, so to speak. But it’s coming. I’ll talk about it once the time comes. Look forward to something nice in any case, where this or that will also be recorded, so to speak, from the rooms we’ve gathered here together. Yes, and tomorrow something really special awaits us, actually. I’m really looking forward to it too, namely Dr. Franz Hütter is coming to our authors’ breakfast. I think that’s a nice honor too. We’re talking about his book, strategic neuroleadership. We’ll also build bridges and connections here again, both to the other books in the direction of neurodidactics for trainers and so on. And namely under this topic complex of leadership and self-leadership, because that’s something that fits in really, really well here, especially because we’re now on the home stretch, so to speak. We have the authors’ breakfast tomorrow, then on Monday a summary, and with that we’ll then really, really surely and specifically wrap up many weeks under this overarching theme of insight and gaining insight with the bringing-together accordingly too. And in that sense I’m really looking forward, on one hand, to talking about leadership and self-leadership with him tomorrow, on the other hand I know it’ll be really, really solid, because everything here is docked onto well-founded, valid research findings, and not just from one field, but various fields. And I value him and like him a lot too. He’s actually one of my trainers, and I feel really honored, not just to have gotten to learn from him among others, but now also to have the honor of welcoming him to our authors’ breakfast. And in that sense, I can promise you, that’ll be amazing tomorrow. Set your alarm, be sure to join, or listen to it afterward in the podcast, I’ll leave that up to you. But anyone who’s there also has the opportunity to ask questions. So in that sense I think the live situation is always something different. And so I just hope everyone who has the time tomorrow morning, even though tomorrow is Mother’s Day, will still join, and only celebrate with family afterward maybe, or not. That’s at least how we’ll do it too. In that sense I wish you a really, really great day today. I’m looking forward to tomorrow and everyone who’s there, and otherwise we’ll hear the rest, I’ll hear it, so to speak, then on Monday again. Until then, ciao.
