Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: What role does emotion regulation actually play in how we act? Dr. Yasemin Yazan, Jürgen, Sabine, Erik and Wolfgang dig into the difference between regulation and control, the fast associative brain versus the slow reasoning one, the Hudson River pilot who overrode the checklist on split-second judgment, and why seeing the person behind an annoying driver — or simply being polite to ChatGPT — changes the whole emotional equation.
Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.
Good morning, everyone. Today we’re talking about action and emotion regulation, and we want to explore the question, what role does emotion regulation play in the context of action — so that we establish this connection here too. So I’m really, really curious. You’re all very warmly invited to join and bring in various first impulses on the topic, and then we’ll gladly follow along these examples or aspects you bring up, to see which direction the room takes us today accordingly, and what insights we can generate together from that. And just a quick reminder that the room gets recorded for the entire time and published later too. That means, anyone who joins automatically agrees to that. We have three small room rules: a profile photo where you’re recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. And if you don’t want that for whatever reason, or can’t speak right now, you of course also have the option to use the chat, to step into the exchange and contribute certain aspects, which I can then pick up too. However, the prerequisite is that at least one person starts the reflection space with me, so to speak, and that we can then also gladly take the chat into account afterward. So, I’m just curious now. Jürgen would like to join directly. Good morning, dear Jürgen. What do you think about this?
Good morning, dear Yasemin and everyone in the room. I hope you can understand me. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to catch the start of this new overarching theme recently. And I’ll allow myself now, so to speak, the request to be brought up to speed, specifically regarding my favorite topic, terminology. And I think this room topic of yours today, dear Yasemin, also gives an opening for that. Namely, emotion regulation triggered something in me at first, regarding the term action — that there’s both conscious, will-driven action, and unconscious action, which ultimately expresses itself under certain circumstances through emotions. And you know I’m always very keen on reaching agreement, on talking about the same thing. And that would be my request, to signal to me or give me feedback on whether I’m correct that we’re looking at action in our context today, and in the future, under these two potential forms of expression — namely, I’ll repeat it, this conscious action driven by will, so to speak, with a clear goal, based on corresponding motivation, but also the other one, the unconscious, meaning something acts within us, for us. And I interpret your room topic today exactly around this aspect, namely, can we, and to what extent, and with what, regulate this unconscious action, indicated through emotions. And there we’d be at the next term. So my request, am I right about that, dear Yasemin?
Yes, absolutely, wonderful, thank you so much for that start, dear Jürgen. And I can confirm that. We had our first approach on Saturday, so to speak, on Sunday there was a digital campfire, so you haven’t missed too much, I’d say. But we did pick up exactly these aspects — we talked about conscious and unconscious action, we talked about activity and passivity in this context, we’ve already picked up keywords like routines, motivations, and of course we then pointed out accordingly that there are various rooms where we’ll go into depth. So we haven’t talked about motivations in combination yet, we haven’t looked at routines in combination yet, and so on. And today, this aspect, action and emotion regulation, and there we are, exactly as you basically said, in this area. What actually leads to it, what do emotions do to us in connection with action, and what exactly happens that we establish this connection here?
Yes, thank you, and I feel very well and relieved now, picked up, so to speak, to continue joining, or rather discussing with you. But I’d like to briefly step out now, I’m in the car and need to leave from here, from this spot, and I hope I stay in contact with you. I’ll check back in once everything works out. Thank you again, dear Yasemin, for your feedback.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Yes, then I’d like to invite the others too, to join and step into the exchange. Today we’re talking about action and emotion regulation. What role does emotion regulation play in the context of action? That’s the question we want to explore today. That means, we’ve talked about emotions again and again over the last few days, weeks, and today it’s just about establishing this connection again and looking more closely at what aspects come to mind for you. Especially, of course, in reference back to what we might have already picked up and discussed in other rooms regarding emotions and their regulation. And yes, so, I’ll mute myself now. Jürgen just said he’s in the process of changing location right now and hopes he can join back in later too. In the meantime, let’s just see who’d like to go into depth with me here again. So you’re all very warmly invited to join. Then I’ll mute myself and see who’d like to start with me this morning.
Good morning, dear Erik. What do you say about the topic? You’re still muted, or if your mic isn’t working, try going out and back in again briefly. That should work. And in the meantime I saw Jürgen is back with us. Then you can go ahead and start, dear Jürgen, if you’d like.
Thank you, dear Yasemin. Sorry, Erik, I only caught bits and pieces. I didn’t want to push in front, but the connection seems to be working right now. And so, my input, which I already announced, regarding the terminology. You chose the title, action and emotion regulation. I always assume, very deliberately, and quite consciously, not action and emotion control. And if I may appear again as the terminology stickler, but I make a really clear distinction there. And that’s a really relevant terminological point for me — namely, regulation, for me, has the noun inherently containing the rule, the norm. That means, today we’re not talking about controlling our emotions, but regulating them. That means, this includes control for me, regulation does, but really importantly, it’s oriented toward a very specific norm. And I’d say, as a first proposition, that emotions that act on our behavior, or that lead us to act, regulate themselves, largely, based on how we act rationally. That means, emotion regulation, from my perspective, my personal perspective, would aim at me saying, as a reference point, please act reasonably and don’t get carried away by this emotion. And what’s reasonable, that’s my reason and my understanding of reason. Thank you for listening, everyone.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Erik, does your microphone work now? Let’s just check. That doesn’t seem to be the case. Then let’s wait a little moment longer, in case it works then. You can always flicker the mic in between, so to speak, then I’ll see that. It doesn’t seem to work right now. Okay, alright.
Yes, wonderful, let me connect directly here too. Yes, so emotion regulation was chosen, among other things, because that’s actually the technical term, emotion regulation, and not emotion control, from the context of brain research. And you said so beautifully, emotion control is included in it. It’s primarily about, I think, first and foremost, that emotion regulation also covers a lot too. That means, emotion regulation can also mean that I might sometimes allow certain emotions that might possibly be unwanted from outside too. So I find it really exciting that you pick up this term again, because there might well be norm-related aspects, but nonetheless we also need, in certain contexts, we might also want an authentic appearance, and not necessarily always a norm-bound appearance at that point. And so the question arises, what you mean when you say, always act according to reason, so to speak. But sometimes it can definitely be advisable too, in the sense of emotion regulation. So emotion regulation means, to some extent, establishing a balance, a certain balance, against the backdrop of possibly a weighing I’ve done, of how far I actually let myself, even quite deliberately, be guided by emotions, or go into steering here and take a different path. What do you think about that, dear Jürgen?
Yes, I’m with you there. With this connection to reason, it was primarily about the distinction described at the start, between conscious thinking and unconscious thinking. And without going further into depth there, for me the emotion, or actually the feeling and the emotion that makes it recognizable outwardly, is a sign. So I make a distinction in terms of terminology there too, we’ve had this topic before, that I say, the feeling is what plays out in our body via a hormone cocktail and God knows what else, with all the physical processes. The emotion is also recognizable from outside, recognizable for others. And I find it really, really interesting that you build this bridge, that action, basically, regarding our own emotion regulation, is always to be seen in a context with our environment. That our action in turn, whether conscious or unconscious, gets evaluated, or in any case gets taken in first, to hopefully then be understood and then evaluated. And to conclude, for me the actual norm is self-referential — when, through self-control or reflection, I recognize I’m now entering a compulsion to act that’s actually triggered by emotions, I’m getting carried away by emotions. There, for me, the counterpart is reason, that I reflect and also analyze whether, at this point you also mentioned, in this case I also allow this emotion, because it fits, because it goes against reason, but because it’s simply, if I say it this way, awesome that it’s going this way right now. On the other hand, under certain circumstances, I also flip the switch and say, no, I won’t get carried along, but I stay reasonable for my standards. Thank you.
Yes, absolutely, thank you so much. And the context also plays a really essential role in this context, because we also talked yesterday, in the room about action and change. How do changes affect us, and what possibilities are there for dealing with them? That was a question formulated for that room, and we talked, for example, about there being different possibilities. Namely, avoidance, distraction, or reevaluation. And especially when it comes to this aspect of emotion regulation, and I then consciously, so to speak, engage with something and derive certain things from it, namely how I want to act, then I also have the possibility to pick up such aspects, for example, which path do I actually want to take now. Or I do it automatically, without being aware of it, then in retrospect I can maybe look at what the strategy was that I followed. Maybe it was avoidance, maybe it was distraction or reevaluation, but then I only see that in retrospect, and can only recognize it in retrospect — then, so to speak, the emotion has overrun me, in quotation marks. In the situation I didn’t do any regulation, but then in retrospect I still have the possibility to recognize that too, and draw lessons learned from it, for example. With that I’d like to bring in Sabine first, and then we can gladly make cross-references again. Good morning, dear Sabine.
Good morning, everyone. I have to admit, I didn’t catch everything. My daughter just called, and unfortunately I didn’t hear Erik either. But nonetheless, when I heard or read this today, action and emotion regulation, I first thought, emotion regulation. Hello, I have emotions and I’m supposed to regulate them at the same time, and then I’m supposed to act. That was a bit, for me,
emotions actually come out of me, and now I’m supposed to regulate them. So am I actually going back into thinking and reflecting, to then say, hello, I’ll put a little ribbon around my emotions and tie them a bit differently than they actually wanted to come out. A bit difficult for me to really understand that, but definitely sensible to do it that way, because then things like acceptance, tolerance came up, where I also say, yes, that’s completely right. Sometimes you need it out of you, but maybe it’s better to go back two steps, like the typical email, where you don’t press the button right away, but rather wait another day, or just say, let the child go, and before you say something, think first. So that makes sense to me, but it took some more thinking.
Yes, wonderful, that with the email is a good example you picked up again, or other examples we can bring in too. Yes, ultimately it’s about whether it happens, so to speak, in the moment, impulsively, in the heat of the moment, or whether I hold myself back again, and Jürgen already made this connection too, with reflecting and thinking. So you can see here that these processes really lead to us automatically having to make connections, so to speak, to then make this interconnection clear here too. So, do I act impulsively and in the moment, as I just said very bluntly, however it comes out of me, or do I maybe step back two steps, mentally, so to speak, look at it on a meta-level, give myself time, for example, just to let the emotions again — that alone is already emotion regulation, if I let some time pass, and can then automatically, so to speak, step out of the emotion again, because some time has passed, or what other means might I have to additionally look at this and then become active again accordingly. Jürgen, would you like to connect to that again too?
Yes, gladly, and thank you so much, dear Sabine, for your contribution, water on my mill, so to speak, namely this topic too — we’ve had this several times, especially in the topic of reflection, if I remember correctly — namely this knowledge, which for me is now conclusively established, that there are two systems in our brain, two systems, one I’ll call more associative, very fast, very much, as Yasemin keeps explaining to us, geared toward energy-saving, this brain area or brain region, and the other, which acts a bit slower, which is shaped by thinking and reason and weighing, and which accordingly also needs much more energy. And so your explanations, Sabine, were actually for me exactly this sequence — that when you’re able, and have the corresponding methods and knowledge, to recognize that right now our associative, fast-reacting, and energy-saving-oriented brain wants to tempt us to now do what I’m offering you, out of emotion. That can be anger, that can be worry, that can be hubris, whatever. That then this conscious, reason-based switch gets flipped, to say, wait, no, stop. And there, for me, is also this bridge to our previous overarching theme, namely, how do I get there? And there, for me, the essential thing is again the topic of reflection and mindfulness. Thank you for that.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. And let me gladly pick up this email example again at this point, because this now sounds already, I’ll say, almost scientific, this thinking or listening or reflecting and then getting into action. If I get an email where I emotionally notice that the team is doing something to me, that doesn’t necessarily have to mean it’s a big reflecting and thinking in this context, but that I first mindfully perceive what’s happening. Namely, that I show an emotional reaction. And perceiving this reaction can already lead to making the decision regarding the action. Making the decision, no, I’d rather not respond right away, but do that later, and then engage with other things. That means, basically, there definitely are aspects like this too, that reflecting and thinking in this context doesn’t mean that I really, I don’t know, spend half an hour, an hour thinking about it, to then really make decisions, but that it can also simply mean, very briefly perceiving, being mindful, and accordingly taking a different path than just directly responding. What do you think about that? Are there differences here from your perspective too?
If I may add something to that right away, dear Yasemin, the sequence, so to speak, regarding the temporal dimension in which this regulatory process unfolds, between the decision, do I accept this, the associative memory, do I accept the emotion, so to speak, as the basis of my action, all the way to the conscious no, stop, or yes, but gladly, with joy. I can’t make a statement about this time span, but you probably can, from your knowledge of brain research. But the essential thing, I think, for me too, in order to even be able to regulate my emotions in the future, is, what actually happens there, what are the prerequisites for this regulation at all — which is what I already said, the second term that’s essential for me today in this topic, and I say that above all it must be recognizable for me that it’s now my emotion, and not my reason, that’s taking hold and making me an offer. So, the recognizing, what’s going on with me right now, and that’s why the one topic of mindfulness too. What’s happening with me right now? To what extent am I in it right now, when I get an email that makes me flush with anger, and this brief pause and saying, stop, wait, I’ve recognized, now you actually want to act more or less unreflectively, triggered by emotions. That’s one thing, the recognizing alone. And then the second essential point, the understanding too. What does this, what does this emotion trigger me toward, what action, which might, afterward, make me regret it, or be embarrassing, or which I would never have done before otherwise. And so, with this second stage, the third position comes in, which I personally think is that right in this moment we always make an evaluation. And there we’re at the topic of regulation, not just control, but regulation. I also evaluate, after I’ve recognized and understood, I evaluate. And when I regulate, I evaluate with regard to my regulative, my norm, my reason. And now, for me, the circle has closed back to the initial definition of the terminology. Thank you for listening.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. And I find it important here too that it’s not just norm-bound, in quotation marks, so to speak. What I then see as a possible effect, this second step, the understanding, what does this whole thing trigger in me and how do I deal with it, so to speak, so also the view toward effects, that also happens under weighing, so to speak, and can then also offer the basis as a decision foundation for the action. And there are various aspects regarding possible effects. There’s this aspect like the norm, so what might be expected of me, how do I react to this now, am I angry, do I flip out or whatever, what might not be norm-compliant. That’s one side, and the other side is that every action ultimately also has an effect in different directions, so to speak, and accordingly it can definitely be the case that it doesn’t primarily have to do with the norm in that sense, that I make this consideration not to want to react this way, but because, for example, I don’t want to endanger a business relationship, or because we might be long-term partners, where it might even surprise me at the moment that I can’t properly categorize it, that I do notice it triggers something in me, but I prefer, possibly, to go into a conversation about it afterward, to clarify it, or similar. So that means, against the backdrop of context too, to look at aspects of possible effects, both regarding norm-conformity or non-conformity, and in which context is the whole thing, and do I want to accept certain effects or not accept them, so what’s the price I’d pay for that in this context, and so we can differentiate here again in two directions, though they’re not completely detached from each other, but can definitely be in harmony here too. Would anyone like to connect to that too? Go ahead, Sabine.
Yes, I thought some more about emotions, and if I go back to emotions now, positive emotions don’t come to mind as many for me as negative ones right away. Positive, yes, joy, fun; but if I go to the negative side, then comes fear, sadness, hate, rage, I don’t know, many more would come to mind, and if I now go into this emotion regulation, then I tell myself, the positive ones can come along, no problem, I want to take positive energy with me. But the negative ones should get regulated, and I think there we’re also, if we think back now to child-rearing, if the child stands in front of the checkout counter and wants their surprise egg and screams, that’s the negative one. There we want to intervene, but if it’s fun, we want to let it run. So I think the problem, we also see this a bit right now in politics, if something is positive, we all find it good, if something is negative, how can that be. So does this regulation actually go more on the negative track, and here the topic of mindfulness, which Jürgen mentioned earlier, to get a grip on yourself, so to speak, to go in the right direction, your goal, as you just said too, the norm-conformity, is that what it’s all for, or am I seeing that wrong?
Yes, let’s gladly look at this more closely together, because that’s really, really interesting with this positive aspect, because especially with regulation, since we look at it through context too, it can definitely be that even a positive emotion, like joy for example, which can then also lead to curiosity or cheering or similar, might not be appropriate in many contexts. So especially if we now look under this aspect of norm-conformity, imagine you’re sitting in a meeting, and the people would start cheering every time they feel some joy about something or similar, that would probably be disruptive, and because you wouldn’t really get anywhere in the meeting, or we know this especially in the context of small children and in school. There, work is already done relatively early on getting them to also just sit still for a longer time, listen to a story, and so on, because otherwise, because the teacher otherwise wouldn’t make progress in school, for example, if the kids storm toward something every time they’re happy about something or curious about something, so to speak, to get a certain order into it. Now of course you can argue about whether that’s in order the way it’s designed in our school system, or not, but without first getting into the evaluation. That means, here too we first have positive emotions we’re talking about, but against the backdrop of norm-conformity, regulation gets applied here again to some degree, and we start with this at the very youngest, that they learn, so to speak, to actually behave in a norm-compliant way, and against the backdrop of norm-conformity, so it’s not necessarily that this reflecting and thinking, what’s happening with me and do I want this or not, but rather it’s more against the backdrop of norm-conformity that they get conditioned relatively early on, basically, regarding sitting still, not immediately giving in to every emotion, and similar. Sabine, you wanted to connect to that again, and then gladly Jürgen too, if you’d like.
Yes, an example just came to mind for me, Ms. Daubner in the evening news, when she started laughing there, where everyone says, you look nice, but it doesn’t fit there at all. So that was the wrong spot.
You’re completely right there. Yes, if you think about it more, more ideas come up, you’re right. No, I completely agree with you there too, the positive side isn’t optimal in every spot either.
And there it becomes clear again that context always plays a really, really important role in this context. Jürgen, would you like to connect to that too?
You just took the word out of my mouth, exactly the context, and there I’m back at the second point of my, sorry if I stick to this process sequence so much, the jump between System 1 and System 2 thinking, point 2 was namely the understanding, understanding what this emotion is actually about, Sabine’s example, this joy, questioning that this joy, that the
negative aspect of joy, is namely a hubris, out of the emotion, and that’s exactly the point, being led astray out of emotion, through an exaggerated joy, to now act this way after all. I try to consciously keep sticking to this context of action, so emotion regulation regarding action, and to say, essentially, for me it’s this three-stage process, which I first need to know as really essential prerequisites, and there we’re back at the topic of knowledge, and on the other hand, in the respective situation, that’s where we’re at the topic you brought up, dear Yasemin, in that particular situation it also then must be understood, because not every hubris, not every joy, not every anger is generalized for all circumstances under which these emotions arise, the same, or rather in the same context, will mean — and with that I’ll end now — will mean, on the negative side now, there definitely are positions where a negative emotion, an anger, a rage, can under certain circumstances even, from my perspective, have a positive effect, namely by releasing tremendous energy to represent your own position. On the other hand, in a different context, I can’t, forgive me if I phrase this a bit bluntly, for example, not just sit there like a slob in front of a client, even if he annoys me. Sorry that I put it so bluntly. A really essential point, thank you for that, context is, as always, one of the key variables. Thank you so much.
Yes, wonderful, and so maybe we can bring in the keyword of roles again here too. That means, I always move in different roles too, depending on whether I’m, for example, in a family setting, out with friends, acquaintances, whether it’s an evening news broadcast, whether I’m at work, and so on, whether it’s a client conversation, and against this backdrop, that means this also plays a role regarding this context, I can then go into this weighing, so to speak, and also make a decision regarding the behavior I want to show, quite deliberately want to show, or don’t want to show, or want to handle differently. Sabine, you wanted to connect to that too.
Yes, I wanted to say something about the duration and depth of the emotion. Let’s imagine, if we bring all emotion regulation down to zero, and we all sit in the room and discuss something, and there are no more emotions there, that wouldn’t actually move us forward in the matter either, because actually the emotion does need to come out a bit, so we know our direction, and I think if the emotion were now steered to zero, we also wouldn’t move forward, or am I seeing that wrong?
Yes, an interesting question, and we can look at that together too. These are the aspects where, if we have the feeling someone isn’t authentic, or seems totally cold or dismissive to us, or similar, and we can look more closely at what that actually does, and I’d already picked up the term establishing balance earlier, meaning it’s always about, again and again, establishing a reason-based, appropriate, situation-fitting, context-related balance, so to speak, and looking at how much or how little is actually needed, and then we’re directly in the area of tensions we move in, especially when we look at it professionally. Let me give an example to make this clear, because it’s also not about steering it completely in one direction or completely in the other direction, but for example in coaching there are certain situations where a door needs to be opened at some point, to address or pick up certain things, where, for example, closeness gets allowed. Then, in the next moment though, it’s important, Sabine you’re on speaker again, then in the next moment it’s also important to look again at establishing a certain distance again, and that happens definitely through this balancing act too, how do I deal with it, which emotions do I maybe let play in too, and so on, to establish a balanced equilibrium, because too much closeness over time could harm this relationship, and too much distance, on the other hand, would lead to no trust being established. That means, here the emotions that get allowed, that get shown, the way of dealing with emotions, plays a really important role again too, to do justice to this tension. I’d like to briefly bring in Jürgen again now, since he flagged directly, and then also try to bring in Erik. Jürgen.
Yes, thank you so much, dear Yasemin, for letting me briefly bring this in, namely, this would rather fit tomorrow’s event for your thousandth, but it’s always outstanding to me how you manage to build these bridges and make this connection from the previous contributions of me and Sabine on this role thing, that’s simple for me and I’ll just say, that’s just great. Thank you so much for that, I wanted to bring that up too.
Oh wonderful, thank you so much. Thousandth you said, we have the thousandth show tomorrow, it’s not a thousand years yet. Let’s see if we manage the thousand years together too. Jürgen, did you want to say something else? You’re on speaker right now, that’s why I’m asking. Okay, alright.
Erik, good morning. What do you say about the topic? Let’s see if the microphone works now.
Yes, then let’s best start with a test. Am I audible?
Yes, wonderful, it works now.
Ah, very good. Yes, I’m in the car, and it probably had to do with the hands-free system here in front of the car. So first thanks, Jürgen, I also had a hearty laugh at the thousand years thing. Wonderful. Exactly, my example from earlier — there you often have the situation of feeling harassed, or restricted in your freedom, or whatever, by other drivers. I recently heard an example in this context too, where someone reported this about themselves, and then drove past the car and saw, also an older gentleman driving there, who reminded them a lot of their own grandfather, and immediately had completely different emotions, and all the anger was gone, and so on. I established this for myself early on too, that it’s like that. As soon as you see the person behind it, and not just the vehicle, you have a completely different access to it, and the situation is completely reevaluated too. And I actively apply that when driving too, in the sense that I say, well, maybe they’re driving slowly around the curve because they have an open aquarium in the trunk and it shouldn’t spill over, or whatever. There are so many situations and reasons, and if you form such a picture for yourself, then your pulse goes down and everything is basically fine again. In this context I also once heard about this interplay between these two systems, the fast one and the deliberate one, I’ll call it, that basically the fast system protects against dangers, for example, and says, essentially reports, here’s a danger, emotions high, we need to react to that. And as soon as you give feedback from the other system, so to speak, okay, I’ve recognized it, I’ve evaluated it differently, then this fast system also basically ramps back down, and the corresponding release of messenger substances and whatever all happens goes back too. Regarding the other topic, emotion regulation in the job, for example, the pilot example came to mind, and the situation we know from this Hudson River emergency water landing, for example. In that situation, I think, the pilot also had certain emotions, which were probably of a negative kind, but was professionally prepared for the possibility that something like this could happen, and then acted accordingly in the situation, worked through the checklists, had dealt beforehand with the possibility of such a situation occurring, and could then act correctly in the situation, so that this danger they might have then — it is a life-threatening situation after all, engines fail, fully occupied plane over populated, inhabited area — and these emotions, he could regulate them and then act accordingly, so that this danger didn’t actually lead to a fatal outcome. I found that a really interesting example too, as preparation for such situations, and you can also, in the case of emails, and also such everyday situations, where you know this will hit you at some point, you can basically consider in advance what strategy you’ll follow, maybe even with a checklist or something, to act exactly the way you actually want to in that moment, but where you might already know about yourself that this might not be so possible in the situation.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and I’d like to pick up two aspects there. First, the second thing you mentioned, where this fast and deliberate system recognizes danger, emotions go up, and then this reaction, so to speak, based on an evaluation I make, to regulate that again, so that the emotions get regulated again too. I find that the evaluating also plays a really essential role in this context. I find that a really important aspect too, to bring in this point of evaluation again and pick it up. And regarding this job example with the pilot, with the Hudson River, I find, by the way, I don’t know who among you has seen the film, there’s a film about it on Netflix. I don’t know if it’s still available. You could watch that, it’s really, really exciting. Especially because it’s exactly about this aspect too, ultimately. There was first an investigation and so on, to check whether the pilot actually acted correctly too. So he was initially celebrated as a hero by the media, but the investigation commission that then took place, that wasn’t so simple. And interestingly, if you can trust this film — I’m cautious there, because it might sometimes be portrayed a bit differently, to make it exciting — but as it’s portrayed in the film, it’s that he, or they, only worked through the checklists to a certain degree, and after that, against the backdrop that it was a dangerous situation where they had almost no time to make this decision quickly, partly, so to speak, deliberately decided against the classic approach that would have been prescribed, or what the machine then suggested to do, and made the landing on the Hudson River, which didn’t correspond to the machine’s recommendation. And that’s why this investigation, which aimed exactly at checking whether that was okay or not okay. And here of course the emotions also play a really big role. So did the pilot act emotionally at that point, so to speak, and that could have gone quite badly, to put it bluntly, or was it justified that he acted the way he acted? And he basically, based on his experience, realized and made considerations for himself in split seconds, so to speak, and established that this can’t go well, what the machine is suggesting there. And indeed it was established afterward that otherwise there would have been a crash landing. And so it all turned out fine in the end. But that’s also really, really exciting, especially against the backdrop that we often have the feeling, especially with checklists or machines or such. So here experience also played a really important role again, as connecting points, so to speak, that had been built up over many years, to, against the backdrop, in this situation, despite the increased adrenaline and everything that came together, have made, reason-based, against the backdrop of the experiences that exist from the past, the route already being known, and so on, a correct decision in this case. So I find that great, this example you brought up too. Now let’s gladly see what else the others want to connect to. And then I’d also like to briefly bring in Wolfgang, before we then move into the closing round. Jürgen.
Yes, I wanted to connect this last aspect, thank you so much, dear Erik, for your example, with your explanation, namely the topic of evaluation. And for me this exact topic of evaluation, conscious or unconscious, in associative or reason-shaped action, is the classic starting point for a topic we had not too long ago, namely the topic of the arrival of bias. And that this offer, this energy-saving offer, in split-second speed, to perceive an action, also triggered by emotions, under — I’ll try to keep this neither positive nor negative, as value-free as possible — under a significant influence of our unconscious bias, our heuristics, our rules of thumb — you also brought in the term experience again, experiential knowledge, experience and expert knowledge too, is, to a certain extent, subject to a
certain unconscious bias, namely that we, under certain circumstances, in the self-image of an expert, and the control, dear Erik, the pilot, having control over this aircraft, are subject to a distortion, and that, potentially, the machine functions much more structured and much more adequately. So thanks again for this connection.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Then I’d like to bring in Wolfgang. Good morning, dear Wolfgang. What do you say about that?
Good morning, everyone, 999, what kind of number is that, please? I was quite shocked. No, just kidding. Yes, I wanted to pick up two points you mentioned. Among other things, the argument came up earlier that different roles are always adopted, especially when it comes to evaluations, when you analyze things and align your own action accordingly, and Erik also said he makes a kind of list, or tries to make a list. And that’s where the impulse came for me, and I wanted to break a lance for ChatGPT here, even if that might seem a bit odd now, but it’s actually the case that if you have a situation, for example a client conversation, and the client reacts somehow strangely, and you go into emotional evaluation, or you simply have no idea what perspective to expect from someone else, then I actually now do this — I describe the situation and give ChatGPT both roles. So, once the role of my counterpart, I tell it, you’re the purchasing manager, and I describe to it the purchasing manager at, I don’t know, a mattress manufacturer, and you’re dealing with a marketing person, and he’ll say this and that to you, what’s your perspective on that — and of course you get my own perspective too, and that really helps, in one place or another, to get a new view on possible arguments, evaluations, and so on. That doesn’t always have to be 100 percent right, of course, but it’s a good chance to have things illuminated from different perspectives, and I find that really great.
Yes, wonderful, and I find it great that you bring up ChatGPT as an example here too. So, for that, yes, we can use such tools for that too, and in various places you can, just like with the pilot example, even if this exceptional situation was different, in many places the machine definitely helps to make evaluations too, where we might not be able to act quite as quickly, in quotation marks, as, for example, could driving a car with the cameras around it, and so on. That’s increasing a lot meanwhile too, and that helps, for example, to actually drive with foresight and not be distracted. And I’ve had situations myself where I thought, oh, I probably couldn’t have reacted that fast myself, I was really grateful there that the system also plays along, so to speak, and keeps an eye on things here too, you could say. And interestingly — and I’d like to pick up this last arc too, since you just brought up ChatGPT — I’ve prepared something for tomorrow’s show, and in this context let myself be supported by ChatGPT too, and I find it really exciting, especially this aspect regarding conformity and behavior and so on. And I find it really, really exciting to observe this symbiosis between human and machine, and how capable of learning these systems are too, because we keep asking ourselves this question, can the system do this or that, and so on. And I was really, really astonished at the closing formulation from ChatGPT that it wrote here, and I’d like to, I quickly pulled it up, I’d like to read it to you. Very gladly — I had thanked it, and then came, very gladly, I’m glad I could help you, I wish you great success with your newsletter and the anniversary special. If you have further questions or concerns in the future, I’m happy to be available to you. All the best and warm regards. I found that great, I first briefly thought, well, this is like talking with an acquaintance. Wolfgang, you wanted to connect to that too.
At this point I really have to smile briefly, and I may add too, because it fits exactly right now, that in my AI talks I always tell people, as the last point, so I give a kind of instruction on how to optimally deal with ChatGPT and co. And the last point is actually, be friendly. And then people laugh, because they think that’s a joke. But my good friend Kai Spriestersbach, who wrote a fantastic book about AI and about ChatGPT, you should check that out, that dear friend, he did a study. And I, well, this isn’t verified, but I’ll just say, I think he evaluated 5 or 7 or 10,000 chats, in which people communicated friendly or not friendly with the AI. And it’s fact and measurable that the AI answers more comprehensively, in more detail, and of course more friendly too, if you yourself are friendly toward it. So, conclusion for me, which I’ve always done anyway, I always say please and thank you nicely to ChatGPT. And the same of course applies, in quotation marks, to dealing with other people too. There it’s also the case that, depending on how we call into the forest, it echoes back the same way. So it’s always worth it, here again and again, and that fits again to this action and emotion regulation topic, to keep looking here and making considerations, reflecting, analyzing. Sometimes relatively quickly too, and that the evaluation plays a role here too, to arrive at new results on one hand. And also the role, the context plays a role. Then we had the evaluations, and also the experiential knowledge, which is also really, really important in this context, to pull that together once more in conclusion.
And then I’d like to move into the closing round. Feel free to use the opportunity again if you wanted to add something, to make that addition, and then also directly underline the closing word for today, the highlight. Let’s start with Jürgen. Jürgen, Sabine, Erik, Wolfgang, in that order please. Jürgen.
Yes, thank you so much, dear Yasemin. I’m really glad too, to be able to join again, especially with this topic, or in this overarching theme. Thank you so much everyone for your contributions. My personal, or my two personal highlights today were, first, this connection with the topic of roles, I hadn’t had that so much on my radar in that regard. And the second thing, dear Erik, the one driving in front of me now, if I imagine that they’re just watching an open aquarium in their car, that example, or that hint, it’s incredibly calming. Thanks again for that, and I’m sure we’ll hear each other tomorrow.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Let’s see. Sabine, your phone just rang, but I think you declined it directly.
Yes, I had a call scheduled for 9, but that can also be 3 past 9. I declined it. Yes, that’s right. Yes, I found that really great. Honestly, when I read the title, emotion regulation, I first had to think three times. Hello, why should I regulate my emotions now? But then, with the whole chain we put together, especially the topic of evaluation, which I think often gets set aside in daily life and maybe should be done much more often, I found that really important. But what I wanted to ask Wolfgang again, since he’s still coming, ChatGPT or AI is a learning system after all. So let’s say, if everyone is always friendly toward it, then it would have to learn friendliness too, wouldn’t it? Or am I wrong here? I wish you all a nice day, and Wolfgang, thanks in advance for the answer.
Yes, wonderful. Erik.
Yes, then I’ll go directly, Yasemin, if that’s okay. Yes, you’re right of course, Sabine, it’s a learning system. By the way, that’s already a thumbs up for the fact that the understanding is now taking hold that it’s not a search engine, but actually a deep learning machine. So, that’s correct. The point is, though, I think, in the mainstream, people currently still use it rather pragmatically and factually, and not like in human dialogue. And that’s why you, so ChatGPT now as a representative of this category, can of course, if you yourself are always individually friendly, sharpen your own profile so to speak, and the AI treats you differently. So yes, your question is right, but it still helps to stick to friendliness yourself first. And yes, my highlight today was, like with the 999 shows before, the incredibly good moderation by Yasemin. Please add to that, all of you others. I think everyone here knows what valuable contributions I’ve brought here. What Yasemin moderates, encompasses, and structures every morning here is simply incredibly valuable. And that’s my total highlight, probably already 500 times now, and thank you for that.
Yes, great, thank you so much. And by the way, maybe taken straight from life, another example too, regarding the learning system. I’d noticed in the meantime that Siri, when you called on Siri, says “huh” instead of “yes please” or “what can I do for you” or similar. And that totally shocked me, and it was relatively quickly clear to me, well, how often must certain sounds from us have been picked up that led to Siri answering with “huh.” That’s really, really shocking, in quotation marks, and funny at the same time. I actually even tried to record it, a few days later, because I thought, this is really worth a post. Because it also shows, in quotation marks, at this point, that it’s not the technology that presents the problem, but basically the human. So, whether — because there’s a lot of discussion about whether these systems are helpful or whether they somehow present a problem for us in the future and so on — so it was a really, really nice example from my perspective, to show that both the problem and the solution are the human in front of the machine, and not the other way around. And I unfortunately didn’t manage to record it, because every time I wanted to record it, a different reaction came, and when I didn’t have anything to record with, the “huh” was there again. And meanwhile it’s gone, I’ve tried it many times, meanwhile it’s not there anymore. I think it got corrected, I actually assume that at this point. But it’s a really, really nice example of how what we put in also plays a role. So I’m also really, really curious how the providers react to this, so to speak, because not everything that gets input or claimed to be knowledge actually represents knowledge, but might also represent false information. And that ultimately has an influence on these machines too, nonetheless. And so I find it totally exciting to observe how that develops further too.
Now to the last contribution, or additional contribution and closing word from Erik too.
Yes, great. So my highlight number one was definitely Jürgen’s thousand-years thing. And I really hope I’ll make it tomorrow. Unfortunately I have a workshop, so I probably blocked my calendar for that reason, and I’ll try to join somehow anyway. And the second highlight was from you, Wolfgang, the pivot to ChatGPT. I found that great, that we got that in too, got that included. That rounded out the room really nicely for me too. Thank you, and I wish you all a great day.
Yes, great, thank you so much. And yes, it’s not a thousand years, but at least we have a thousand shows to celebrate tomorrow. And I’d already announced it on Sunday at the digital campfire that there will also be a few changes. And it’s time now to reflect here too, so on one hand to celebrate, then to reflect, to pick up certain new impulses from you too, in order to make one decision or another based on that too. And it also has to do with there being an update on Clubhouse, some things have changed here too. So a nice occasion to use the thousandth, or thousand-day, rather, at this point, to actually step into exchange and take the time for it. And that fits again to this overarching theme of action. That means, here too, quite consciously and deliberately, so to speak, going into reflection, kicking off thinking, in order to then take the results from that as a decision basis for the next steps. And we want to talk about that together again tomorrow too. So you’re all very warmly invited, whoever can make time, to really join too. On one hand in the sense of co-shaping, and on the other hand also to celebrate the thousandth episode together and have a bit of fun with each other. With that, I’m looking forward to tomorrow morning, and I’m really, really curious what develops and results from the room. And which new chapters we can and will open up with that too. With that, I wish you well, and I’m looking forward to tomorrow. Until then. Ciao.
