#890 Labor Market Developments

Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: 5,000 highly educated young people crowding a Chinese stadium to fight over jobs — what does that say about the real meaning of a “skilled labor shortage”? In Room #890 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme “Pioneering Spirit with brAIn,” the group digs into the 250,000-versus-5.2-million numbers game, a wind-industry insider on employers who won’t train or pay, a women-only engineering track that could halve the STEM gap, and why nobody can even agree on what a “skilled worker” is. Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…

Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.

A wonderful good morning to you all. Today we continue with labor market developments, and want to deal with the question of to what extent labor market developments, skilled labor shortage, and unemployment are interdependent. And I’m really curious what different examples, impulses you’ll bring in this morning, to start the reflection space together. In that sense you’re all very, very warmly invited to join and get into the exchange with your thoughts that pop up directly in this context, so to speak. And the reminder again gladly, that the room is recorded the whole time and also published. That means anyone who joins automatically agrees to that too. Then we have three small room rules. First and last name, then a profile photo where you’re clearly recognizable, and at least one sentence in your bio. Simply to make sure these are genuinely intended contributions and not Clubhouse trolls. Anyone who doesn’t want that for whatever reason, wants to stay anonymous or similar, of course also has the option, as usual, to simply use the chat, and get into interaction with us that way too, and then I can pick up one thing or another accordingly during the exchange and discussion. Right, and various questions arise here now. I’ll mute myself in a moment too, to see who’d like to join. Maybe as first impulses. We’ve talked about various aspects. On one hand we have a lot of technological developments happening in the background, that have effects on labor market development, like artificial intelligence, which I think is currently a very explosive topic. I’d mentioned briefly, I don’t know if that was yesterday or the day before in the room, that Axel Springer, for example, has now very freshly, currently announced that they’re cutting a lot of positions and handling those through artificial intelligence, so certain tasks that can be taken over by artificial intelligence. And you can observe similar things elsewhere too. Then we have the skilled labor shortage, which has been growing for many years now. Of course you could go into the discussion here too, whether there’s actually a skilled labor shortage at all, or to what extent it might be self-made too. So maybe thinking in this direction too and questioning it critically, gladly. And unemployment, in inverted commas. That means letting flow in here too, what political developments are there, what decisions are being made? How does one thing connect with the other, and how does the labor market develop accordingly right now. At the same time there are aspects, as we’ve already talked about, on one hand it’s said there’s a skilled labor shortage, especially for example in skilled trades or also in nursing professions, that’s also been discussed for a long time. And then at the same time you also see at one point or another that especially companies still sit on their “high horse,” so to speak, and often look for the so-called, in quotation marks, egg-laying wool-milk-sow. So best young, dynamic, lots of experience, all kinds of training, etc. That means, here they’re maybe making it hard for themselves too, to some extent. So to what extent does that maybe also have something to do with the fact that a rethink is simply allowed and needs to happen here, in inverted commas. Right, and then we have all the discussions here about support from abroad too. That’s also something we can follow currently. And here the first course has been set, so that skilled workers from abroad can more easily come to Germany, to support here. You might have followed one thing or another here too. There were also various shows about, for example, that if, let’s take the example of doctors. If someone comes from abroad, it already starts with, to what extent is the training of someone from abroad recognized at all. But that’s not just the case with highly regarded professions, but also especially when someone comes from a skilled trade or similar. Classically, maybe from a country that doesn’t have so-called chamber-of-commerce apprenticeships or comparable training like we have. That means these trainings are largely not recognized here either. These people then often only have the possibility to bring in their know-how, their skills and experience, for little pay. That raises the question of whether that’s somehow sensible. And yes, so those are the first thoughts I have on the topic. I think a lot more will probably come together this morning in the exchange together. Accordingly I’m curious what you can already do with these first impulses. Maybe one example or thought or another already comes up. And then I’ll gladly mute myself and see who’d like to join first this morning, to get into the dialogue.

A wonderful good morning, dear Sabine.

A wonderful good morning. I’ll join briefly. As I said, I’m still on vacation, maybe that’s why a slightly different idea comes to me too. The question of course is, why do we all actually work considerably less and have considerably more time? We should actually have much more energy, but the path is exactly the opposite. We all have more stress, we all have social media stress, we run from one thing to another and don’t have this balance, and I think that runs through all professions, through all kinds of things. Maybe it’s also because I just read Marc Gassert’s book “Everything gets easier before it gets harder” the other way around. No idea, so that gives me a lot to think about. I don’t know if that’s what you wanted to hear, but I just wanted to contribute that.

Yes, wonderful. Thank you, thank you so much. We can gladly pick that up in this context too. It doesn’t necessarily hit this thought of labor market development with regard to something like skilled labor shortage or similar a hundred percent, but it’s also something that has an influence on market development, or willingness. In recent days we’ve also talked about performance and such, and maybe also the attitude here. We’ve opened up various rooms on the topic of Gen Z and so on. Different expectations, different attitudes toward work in general, how that’s changing too. And these ultimately of course also affect labor market developments too. Quite generally with regard to the stress you mentioned. That can be explained a bit from the brain’s perspective too, from the aspect that on one hand there’s stress. Stress per se isn’t negative at first, but stress, without being overwhelmed, so to speak, challenges us too and lets us grow beyond ourselves too. Accordingly that has positive components too, and we even need stress to a certain degree to develop further. However, compared to earlier, where it was always also about the aspect of existential security, today, in our affluent society, we often no longer have the challenge that it’s frequently about existential security. So we’re not threatened by a saber-toothed tiger or similar. However, we bring home negative news, so to speak, in many contexts, in inverted commas. Whether that’s horror movies we watch, or negative news through the media or whatever. And the whole thing, viewed in sum, leads to stress being triggered in the sense of feeling too, and too much of it, and too much of it, if there’s no corresponding balance elsewhere, ultimately leads to us, even though we work less for example, being maybe even sicker than in previous years. So that’s one explanatory approach at this point. Sabine, would you like to say something more on that?

Yes, that’s the solution. Right, now let me try to say something more on the other point. The other point is the question, so I’ve been thinking about this recently, we import workers from everywhere. We’re just now doing this with Brazil too because of nursing, and we’re partly talking about professions that in my opinion almost anyone could do. Maybe not fully professionally at first, but at least as a helper job. And still we don’t manage to get people into bread-and-butter work. So I don’t want to open up the topic of Hartz IV or unemployment benefit now, but the question of course is, why can’t we get people into these areas. I’ve been thinking about this, because in reverse, if you go out on the street and see such people, I don’t know if they’re happy sitting there all day with their bottle. That’s really a question, and I think if they were positively influenced, we might get more of them, the fun would come. They’d like to do it, and they’d have a more fulfilled life.

Yes, thank you, thank you so much, and I think we don’t even need to think in these extremes partly, because if you now say, with the bottle in hand, so we have a lot of other people too. I remember seeing a report a few weeks ago, a documentary. It was about a doctor who filmed her everyday life a bit, and so on. And eventually also her path to quitting, so to speak. And she quit. She worked in the emergency area, so in the emergency room, and in this documentary she showed how difficult the circumstances are there too, because of this understaffing and so on, so too little personnel, too much work, that was really, really intense, how many shifts sometimes had to be worked in a row, sometimes only one hour of sleep in between, actually on site in the hospital, where they’d set up their little rooms for that and so on. And that’s of course something that also does something to you physically, and in this case that wasn’t a nurse but actually even a correspondingly trained doctor, and she decided, not because she doesn’t like the job anymore or anything, but simply because at some point it’s no longer physically feasible, to quit here. And especially with regard to nurses etc. or in this area too, on one hand you could say the attractiveness of the activity isn’t strongly enough developed, so that maybe too little goes into the area with regard to training and such. And on the other hand, because this gap has become very, very large, simply too little personnel and so on, and the framework conditions are so bad, that even the people who are there and even like doing the job per se, eventually reach their physical, health limits, and for that reason, so not because they don’t want to do the job, but for that reason, ultimately quit. And if we also look at recent years, the gap kept growing bigger on one hand, many promises that a lot should be done here. But especially the Corona period, I find, was a nice example of that, with regard to, well, on one hand there was cheering and clapping, but what actually arrived here in the end? And yes, and then of course you can ask the question, does that have something to do with willingness or similar? Are people from abroad maybe more willing to work under difficult conditions than us? So does that have something to do with us too, or is it now just, so to speak, a kind of emergency solution? But whether that happens in nursing or in the medical field, can ultimately also be transferred to other areas. That means, in skilled trades too or such, if we look at various areas, there’s less and less personnel to handle the tasks. And through that a cycle arises too of course. And whether the solution actually lies in bringing someone from abroad here, let’s leave that undecided. We’ve talked here for example about subsidies and so on for companies. Or whether other means and ways and thoughts, so to speak, need to come into play too, to see how you could restore a foundation here, so to speak, because just, in inverted commas, opening the doors and saying, if it doesn’t work in your own country, we just have to get someone from outside. That’s one thing. And the other is also the question, this is also a topic of very high complexity. I already mentioned the trainings from abroad. Partly it’s the case, depending on which country someone might come from, that these trainings aren’t necessarily recognized either. And possibly we also have people, and we mustn’t forget this either, in the country who don’t belong to these classic countries where agreements or arrangements have been made, who might also have the possibility here to do certain things or perform jobs too, but against the background that, although they live here in Germany, maybe even for many years in Germany, their training isn’t recognized, they’re either working in other activities or have found other alternatives for themselves or whatever. So that would also be interesting to consider, because I mentioned recently in one of the rooms that it’s quite the case that people here in Germany look for activities or jobs, sometimes even tasks they originally performed in their own country, but don’t get the opportunity at all, but maybe only get the opportunity to be employed as “helper,” in inverted commas, if at all. And here too there’s a really, really massive imbalance. And to raise awareness of that a bit on one hand, and on the other hand we’re very quickly at this aspect too, that companies here might certainly, or institutions too, may need to rethink. Because yes, if we really want to change something here, then this rethinking is needed at this point too. Not just based on the “resume,” in inverted commas, and if the requirements aren’t met on paper, that someone isn’t even invited to an interview in the first place. Just as an example. And Sabine, I’ll gladly give you the opportunity again in a moment to continue too. I’d like to point out again, Sabine already mentioned this too, for those who might have joined the room later. Sabine is currently on vacation, so won’t be able to be here the whole time. Accordingly you’re all warmly invited too. Especially also because Sabine might have to log off again soon, but also to open up various perspectives and directions again, pick up examples etc. Feel free to join too, to get into the exchange and actually bring in a few examples, thoughts, impulses. It’s not at all about whether it’s right or wrong or anything, but we just want to capture different perspectives, to be able to talk about them accordingly. Sabine, would you like to continue on this?

Yes, I’ll continue briefly and then I really go to breakfast. I was just at this seminar on the topic of personal development, and there I met a lot of people who say, well, my job, that’s not it. And it was about, I want to go more into the area of making other people happy, the topic of nutrition, personal trainer. So it went in that whole direction. And I ask myself whether it’s also a trend that more people leave these areas because they’re not entirely happy. And the question is always whether I find happiness 100% in my job, or maybe also in my whole life setup. Yes, that all gave me something to think about. So what you just said, I can also understand that. I have a brother-in-law who’s also a doctor, and he also says, I have a problem keeping up with my job, because I actually take care of everything else more and have to plug gaps. So I can understand what you said there too. Otherwise I wish you a nice day. We’re going to breakfast now. Enjoy. Thank you, thank you so much. A nice day to you too, dear Sabine.

Yes, and also what Sabine just brought in again. Here too we may of course be careful with generalizations. It also has a lot to do with which circle we’re currently moving in too. That means, on one hand we might have the impression that topics like personal development and so on making other people happy, maybe offering coaching or similar, is really, really increasing. On one hand you can prove that statistically, that there’s an increase there. And at the same time, but if you also look at other areas, you’ll also find that there’s also a lot in the area, just, in inverted commas, classic down-to-earth activities, where people also move in different bubbles, so to speak. And depending on which environment we’re currently in, we sometimes maybe also get the impression that it’s very massively pronounced in one direction or another, because we only get a snapshot, so to speak, of what’s happening in the market. So to neutralize that a bit again at this point. Marc, a wonderful good morning. What do you say about the topic?

Good morning to the group. I’d like to take you on a brief journey, and since you know I deal with China, it’s not unlikely to guess where the journey goes. Imagine a stadium. Let’s all imagine a stadium now, and there’s a loudspeaker. And now I quote, my reference source is ZDF, your heart beats, your blood boils, fight, you’re the best, blares from the loudspeakers. What’s it about? A sports event? No, it’s not. It’s, my overarching topic is education. 5000 trained Chinese people stand outside with 300 pavilions in the stadium and try to get a job. Currently every fifth young person in China is unemployed. I’m talking about highly qualified people with an education degree comparable to our high school diploma. And I just wanted to bring this perspective into the round, from abroad too. I’m still of the opinion, education is important. Education helps us, but education isn’t always the security that we then get a job, because these are trained people, as I said, trained people looking for a job, and every fifth young person in China is currently unemployed. Because the topic you just mentioned, Yasemin, is so complex, that you can’t actually just focus on certain terms. What training do we need? What education do we need? What workers do we need? But rather so many components interlock worldwide and with us too, that if you only solve one of these components, you don’t yet have a general answer to a solution.

Yes, absolutely. Thank you, thank you so much. Yes, it’s a very, very complex topic, and what’s also important to me in this context is to differentiate again between education and qualification. Because education, that’s primarily about really leading a self-determined life, in which you know which direction you want to go, who you are, organizing the whole thing, getting into self-efficacy and also establishing life competence. Accordingly qualification also plays a role within education. However, education isn’t equivalent to pure qualification, which is unfortunately often observed and leads to us only thinking in degrees, certificates and so on, which in case of doubt don’t really get us further at this point, in inverted commas. Just to mention that on the side. But I’m totally with you, especially in comparison too, when we look at that. So every fifth person is unemployed. I don’t even know how the current numbers look for us right now. If anyone knows, feel free to bring that in too, or Google it in parallel too. But here too the question is always, in what context does that ultimately stand? So we also have a certain unemployment. The question is just, why, in inverted commas, do people not work, or what happens there? There are always many, many discussions about that. Nevertheless I’d like to continue on this too, because it’s often such an argument too, in the sense of there’s no reason anymore for one person or another to work, because you basically get enough state support or something. Here too, being careful with these statements, in inverted commas, because you can’t say that so generally, but everyone who’s ever been unemployed in their life, or has experienced these circumstances at the job center or the employment agency, can maybe present that from a completely different perspective too. So you really have to look at this in a differentiated way, and can’t dismiss it generally, all the way to, there are also enough people who might even have a claim to unemployment benefits, for example, and don’t even claim it, because they’re too proud to go to the office. Otherwise we’d probably have even higher numbers in the statistics, in the numbers, that we’d have to record at this point. So that too, to keep in view too. Marc, do you have further thoughts? Would you like to bring in more examples?

Yes, I dealt intensively with the topic yesterday, and I’ve learned a lot here in the club. Especially to you, dear Jürgen, I owe a lot, always paying attention to the words. And now I’ll start again with storytelling. And the difficulty for me is giving a universally valid answer. If you start with unemployment and skilled labor shortage, you enter into Google, that’s how I do it, skilled labor shortage. Then you get, then you get the first headline, that STEM, STEM jobs done. Oh yes, I’ve heard that before, I believe. And if you then add up the positions that exist there in electrical professions, in IT professions, energy professions and so on, I get to just 250,000 jobs. That’s a lot. We’re talking about a skilled labor shortage. Then I ask myself, what are we missing? Where are jobs missing? What’s a specialist? Are we just missing workers, so people who do the work? Are we missing skilled workers? Are we missing specialists? And if you then look at the biggest companies, if you look at, where the, so that claim, we have a skilled labor shortage, and you then start a search, who are the biggest employers in Germany. So if we have a labor and skilled labor shortage in the STEM area, and I look at the biggest employers in Germany, then I find Siemens, then I find people from the automotive sector, then I find the postal sector, then I find the insurance sector and so on. Those aren’t STEM jobs now, that’s mixed with a good education. And now it goes further, now it goes further, then I’m done too. But if you now don’t search for the biggest employers in Germany, there you only find people from industry, then you find one of the biggest employers, that’s the public sector, and I just listed, the STEM professions, if the statistics are right, about 250,000 jobs or skilled workers are missing there, that’s very, very a lot. In the public sector 5.2 million people are employed. If I then deal with statistics, and depending on how I want to evaluate that, is that then so dramatic. So my problem is the drama. Where are people missing? Who’s missing there? What does that mean exactly for our prosperity, where is prosperity generated and so on. We currently have about 45.6 million employed people in Germany, and we all talk about skilled labor shortage, and everyone will know someone who’s looking for someone. But what Jürgen always does, I can’t answer, who is this skilled worker? Is that someone who’s just looking for work? Is that someone from the restaurant industry who doesn’t want to wait tables now? Do we want to call a waiter a skilled worker or a specialist, exactly what you just said. Dear Yasemin, with education there’s also specialization, and the deeper we look into this topic, and depending on what questions we ask ourselves, we’ll find different answers to this topic.

Yes, absolutely. Thank you, thank you so much. And there’s also an aspect you just mentioned, “by the way” so to speak. We may also distinguish again with regard to, for example, big companies that are well-known, or that doesn’t even have to depend on size. So there are companies that are simply well-known by name, that classically represent well-known employers. That means, that might also have something to do with marketing and visibility too. That means, it could be, for example, that in the restaurant industry you could get the feeling that it’s lacking everywhere. However, especially the players who are well-known by name don’t complain that too few applications come in or anything. So accordingly that might also have something to do with visibility and attractiveness of the employer. Attractiveness, I don’t mean now in the sense of only working four days a week or something, but that there’s sometimes maybe a shift, relocation in visibility from certain employers, and others, smaller ones, maybe also ones that can’t even afford to become visible here, or maybe don’t know well enough how to. It doesn’t always have to do just with financial means either, to become visible and make yourself visible, just by drawing less attention to yourself, so to speak, which comes with maybe no applications coming in, all the way to only applications that you actually might not even be able to consider, because it’s too far away at this point. Marc, would you like to say something more on that?

Yes, I’m still thinking. You’re right there. You’re right, the question is always which question do we ask? Are we talking about our prosperity, about our future, and please, please no shitstorm against the public sector now, we need that. But if we go by the number of employees and then consider, what do we need for such a system to function, where is money earned, what maintains our prosperity? And I was just fascinated by the number, if 5.2 million people are in the public sector, then they’re important. Without that the system doesn’t function either. And depending on which statistics you search, then I found a statistic, Germany is an industrial nation. I’ve heard that before too. That’s of course from the industry association. If you then get to the numbers, that’s 30 percent of the people in Germany are in industry. And then I have a problem with the numbers, if 30 percent of the people are in industry and Germany is an industrial nation, what about the other 70 percent of the people, what do they generate? And that’s what I mean by the complexity of the topic, which I can’t answer today. What does our future look like, we all want to feed our families, we all want to buy something to eat, the money has to be earned, where is it earned, with whom is it earned, what does the future look like, the jobs of the future, will everything shift to the IT sector, will we even still have jobs in the future, will money even still be generated with work or with programming, which of course is also work, but not with the creation of physical goods that I can touch, but with goods that then run in the computer, so with software and so on. And if you, if you now take the internet to help with that, then you’re not smarter, you’re just more confused, because depending on what questions we ask, sorry, what questions we have, we constantly find new answers every minute practically. And in the end a big question mark remains.

Yes, thank you, thank you so much. And you’re also addressing this shift again. And that’s also important to look at again in this context. That means, overall things are changing through the technologies that are now added, and become more accessible too, and again, what that means with regard to developments too, that regardless of where we stand today already, so to speak, what can be foreseen for the future. We also talked about job cuts and so on. That means what becomes clear is, also with regard to Future Skills, mega-learning and so on, that a kind of shift becomes necessary here too, also a kind of accompaniment, so to speak, that tasks fall away, for example, that were maybe done until today, to take on other tasks instead. That means, similar to the development we’ve observed over many years, this “you’re no longer 30 years in a company or until retirement,” but that you now change employers more often and so on. We can say the same about tasks. That means, it’s no longer just the one training I did, but in the future we’ll go much more in the direction, I’ll just call it now career changers, yes, so there’s a task shift, and if I’ve done training in a certain area, so to speak, that doesn’t mean I work in this area for 30 years or 40, 50 years, but that through this shift that’s happening here, and that’s also foreseeable, that it’ll come much more strongly, there’ll also be a necessity, so to speak, not to hold onto what was originally learned, so as a degree now thought of, but to consider here too and look at on one hand, how can you accompany people here too, to take on new tasks. And that doesn’t necessarily have to go along with a completely new qualification. That’s important too. So maybe also certain things I can learn on the job, so to speak, and not have to sit through school again for another training. So here too we may need to come into a rethink again, to some extent, because retraining measures and so on, which take a long time, well, then I’m not agile, in inverted commas, either, but I need to make sure that I can become active again at that moment, so to speak, pitch in and so on, and not just, I don’t know, how many months or years later. Because then the time might already be over again, and I’d already need to learn something else again, in inverted commas. Now we have two more comments. Accordingly I’d like to bring those in too. Then we can gladly make cross-connections again too. Anahita had raised her hand first, so accordingly in that order, and then gladly Wolfgang.

A wonderful good morning.

Good morning, moin from Hamburg. I’d like to, maybe it makes sense, report a bit directly from the world of work, so from up close. Marc just gave an example for the wind industry. So I work in the wind industry, and I have to say, yes, we’re missing skilled workers, but the expectation from employers is enormous. So with regard to job postings, qualification, what they’re willing to pay, the dimension that many employers think about, isn’t achievable at all. Vocational training professions are no longer looked at. We’re missing technicians, mechatronics engineers, mechanics. There are enough people who have enough training in the area, also work experience. They’re not taken, because they don’t have a university degree. The minimum has now become a bachelor’s degree, just to get into such a company at all, with a minimum of three to five years of work experience. A trainee who might also have the knowledge and could work into it, doesn’t get a job. Little is invested in training on the job, so that certain employees might get special training, might specialize or qualify in other areas. That doesn’t exist. And just what an employer is willing to pay, no employee will take a job with that. So you can, let’s say roughly, you can’t say I’ll take an engineer with six, seven years of work experience and pay them 40, 50,000 K. That’s not feasible. Nobody goes along with that. So what I want to say is, it’s talked about everywhere. Companies talk about skilled labor shortage. But there are also people out there who could do these jobs partly, or could also be trained, if you were willing to invest up to that. But the expectation from employers is extremely high. And of course there are many people from abroad who are willing to maybe work in Germany for less money. They bring the qualification, but it’s in turn difficult to train them in. I mean, I work in a company where you actually get along quite well with English, but there are also companies where you just can’t work with English. There you’re just missing language skills, especially in nursing professions, you can’t just start working as a nurse. You have to be further trained, you have to learn the medications, learn the laws, you have to see how it works here, learn the hospital system. There you have to train people again for 1.5 years, and also get them to a linguistic level so they have the possibility to advance. And that’s missing everywhere. So it’s not enough to just say, okay, we now have 2,000 open positions. Yes, well, how do you want to pay the people then? What are you willing to give? And nothing is done about that, from the company side. It’s not about the order situation either. Many companies, even during Corona, especially in industry, had enough orders. But people are missing. So in my area, where I work, we sometimes even work over 14 hours a day in management, because we simply have too few people. People are simply overloaded. And no wonder there are people who say, I’m not doing this anymore, I’m getting out of here, because at some point it’s not mentally feasible anymore either. So you can’t manage it with family, with friends, with social life anymore either. At some point it’s enough. Then you think, the money isn’t worth it, then I’ll do something else, or I’ll take a part-time position somewhere where I’m doing well health-wise. So you notice, it’s really a lot more together. It’s not simple to say, there’s a skilled labor shortage. I just wanted to give that as input.

Yes, wonderful. Thank you, thank you so much. And absolutely. It shows on one hand the complexity, and shows too that it’s totally important to really look at this in a more differentiated way. And that we can’t just generally speak of a skilled labor shortage exclusively, but really need to look decisively, which areas are being talked about right now? What differences are there between big and small, well-known and unknown companies? All the way to, which field is that we’re talking about? And on one hand, while you were explaining that, I also thought, yes, it’s partly about what employers are willing to pay. We can now open up various perspectives on this too. That means, people who live here and have their families here and so on, have completely different costs of living, for example. Accordingly certain expectations for the salary too. At the same time, on the other hand, viewed from the company’s perspective, personnel costs are very, very high in Germany. That means what’s ultimately paid out, or what stays with the employee, that’s always with taxes and so on, that’s clearly less than what the company, so to speak, has to take into hand, to ultimately employ personnel and also finance them. Especially for smaller companies a big challenge. Nevertheless, if we now open up the aspect again of bringing people here from abroad, those aren’t just linguistic hurdles, but also cultural ones. So that means, it also does something culturally too. So that can’t be dismissed either, there are also first reports to be found online, where, for example, people also complain, in inverted commas, that for example, a very concrete case I looked at, that male nursing staff have difficulties, against the background of how they’re culturally rooted. For example, from a female supervisor, that can be a doctor or someone who also bears responsibility as a nurse maybe, to accept that and implement what needs to be implemented at that moment, because there are certain aspects here that are culturally involved too. And especially in certain areas, where it’s about making quick decisions or such, where there’s no time to have any discussions, where it’s simply important to also transfer orders that are given, so to speak, immediately into implementation, that can’t be dismissed either. So there are various aspects that really come together here at this point too. And one last point I’d like to pick up again before I hand over to Wolfgang, is the aspect too, even if we bring people here from abroad. We’ve also said that we always want to look, under this overarching theme we’re working on, currently Pioneering Spirit with brAIn, to also realize the connections a bit, and always think in connections too. The point is, I can, for example, also bring people here from abroad, they might also be willing to work for less money, in inverted commas, and might also be good and bring the corresponding qualifications. But the question is also, what happens then? So also if we think in a cycle, so to speak. Very often you can also observe that many people leave their families behind in other countries too, live here then in corresponding accommodations and such, don’t have the goal at all to stay here long-term, but only temporarily, so come with the thought of staying here temporarily too, to earn money and then also feed their families accordingly in their own country, for example, or similar. So also what happens then with the income? Does it then stay in Germany, for example, or does it go back to other countries? Not that it’s something negative or anything, but also to look at this economically, so to speak, and also think in these chain reactions too. So accordingly it’s also important to look, especially when we have people in the country, in our own country too, who are willing to work here, to actually give them the opportunity at this point too. Wolfgang, what do you say about the topic?

Good morning Yasemin, and hello to the group. Yes, I wanted, from my point of view, and you know who follows me knows, I’m a marketing person, wanted to bring in my perspective, and I’ve noticed in recent months, maybe even years, sorry, I have a bit of the summer flu, but it’s not a man flu, so I’ll survive it. Right, so I’ve noticed that the actual main task for companies, I’d even, let me start differently, I wouldn’t even say there’s just a skilled labor shortage, but I’d also say from my marketing perspective and expand, there’s even a shortage of skilled employers. Namely, felt, a shortage of skilled employers in external presentation. So what I want to say is, the employee market, or the labor market, is developing away a bit from, we put in a lot of effort to serve job portals etc. as a company and find employees, and that’s changing very strongly currently in our perception to, we need to present ourselves very well as an employer, as an employer brand with our values, so that qualified employees find us. So an enormous change is happening there. I notice that in all business-to-business projects we have, where companies partly had five, sometimes even six-figure budgets per year for job portals, and are now increasingly coming to the realization that this doesn’t bring us much, because for job postings where we used to have 100 applications, then eventually still 25, we now maybe only get four or five, and it’s actually much more important to position yourself well as an employer and communicate values, to then really be found by good employees, and that works very well in reverse. I even have a concrete example, that was with us, as I, so far, a small company, we’re 20 people, but we’ve now onboarded four new colleagues, and the last interview took place with a very interesting candidate, and he said, I know that here nearby, I live, so the agency is near Fulda, and Fulda is a very prosperous small economic hub, and he said, I know I could earn a few more euros in Fulda, but I chose the company that offers me the best future prospects, where I see that it’s progressing there too with future technologies, AI and so on. So what I want to say is, my intention in speaking up here was that labor market development is happening in a direction where companies need to understand to communicate their values better, to get good employees. That’s increasingly coming into focus with us in marketing. That’s what I wanted to say.

Yes, I’m absolutely with you that that’s a really, really important aspect in this context, and while you were telling that, Wolfgang, I thought, yes, I’d mentioned it at some point already, and in this context it of course fits wonderfully now too. What strikes me, for example, is that we too get very, very many applications actually, even though not a single job posting has ever taken place, and we’re not even looking. And that shows how important this corresponding presence, visibility, the brand at this point is too, so to speak, to be found by people who are looking. And the interesting phenomenon about it is really that it’s very broad. So you might now think that only people apply to us who might have interest in coaching or something. No, these are really very, very different people, highly qualified from very different areas. So starting from marketing to IT people and so on. So it’s crazy how many applications also come in, unsolicited applications so to speak. And that has even increased so much that I then thought about how we could deal with that, because it’s actually a shame that such great people apply and somehow have no chance at all, because we’re just not hiring. And I recently thought again about the Deep Talk Club and the networks that exist here too, also with the authors and so on, we have André Beyer there, who also has Hidden Candidates at this point, and I got into exchange with him, so to speak, about whether it would make sense for us to establish contact for the candidates who apply with us there, because they actually match companies and workers there, so to speak, and I’m glad we found a solution, not just, in inverted commas, if at all, sending out a negative message, but actually also being able to send a link along in this case, to forward further here too, in the hope that something wonderful can come from that too. I’m totally curious. Marc, Wolfgang, would you like to continue on those points too, before we move into the closing round?

Go ahead, Wolfgang.

Yes, I can totally confirm that. I also always do that, if someone applies and I don’t have a position, or it just doesn’t fit, then I try to forward him or her to a colleague, or I also know a lot of bigger agencies from the Rhine-Main area, because I travel as a speaker, and then I say, apply at this one, that one, or that one, recommend them highly from me, and then it’s often the case that this person also gets a position. So I find it totally important to work together on that, in our marketing industry it’s of course also the case that there’s actually no real competition in that sense, but the colleagues in this small segment, in this small bubble, get along very well with each other, and that’s how we do it too. Accordingly I can clearly agree with you on that. And one last aspect, very briefly. What I notice in the conversations is actually that a shift in values has also established itself in the perception of employees. So what I mean is, of course, and the speaker there, I’ve forgotten the name now, was totally right, of course money is an important argument, and money is also ultimately a strong motivation, but in motivation there’s motive, and many now have other motives too, so people actually talk to us about sustainability and other topics like that, which are clearly more in focus today than a few years ago. So I wanted to say that too, sure, money and working conditions etc., yes, but it’s also very, very much about other values of the company.

Yes absolutely, thank you, thank you so much. Marc, you wanted to continue too.

Yes, one more point, just so we’ve looked at it from all sides. You recently also said, what can we do, what resources do we have, and I took on the STEM area, and I came to the answer, one possibility would be to get more people from the STEM field, if we also deal with the topic of sexism, and the answer to that is, there’s a university of applied sciences in Mülheim an der Ruhr, that made a special university for these engineering sciences, where in the first two years only women are in the class, because women have to justify themselves when they go into the profession. So only ten percent of women are even active in the elementary profession, and while at Aachen University then it’s considered, why are you studying engineering sciences and so on and so on, Mülheim University reacted by creating a department that’s visited only by women in the first two years, and the reaction to that was very, very good, because the women were in a group, didn’t have to justify themselves, and the study found that if we could just double the proportion of women in STEM subjects, that would already help the industry, the STEM industry, because then we’d already have solved a large part of the skilled labor shortage in the STEM area.

Yes, thank you, thank you so much, and because you just brought up the topic with women too. Another aspect that’s also not to be underestimated in this context is also the rethinking with regard to, for example, sharing a position or something. So those are also discussions that keep happening. That means, even if we’ve developed a lot further here, it’s still the case, at the latest when it comes to family planning and so on, that it’s still very many women who also take care of raising children and such. Even though we can certainly record changes here too. And that also leads to, with regard to, how can women then be “reintegrated”? And here too the challenge, we hardly find, so if you look at job postings, how few positions are advertised part-time, for example, or open up the possibility to share jobs, so to speak, or whatever. So here too options may and must be created. So here too again the topic of rethinking, so to speak, at many points where it’s possible, and not to dismiss that directly, but to consider what further doors we can open up, in inverted commas, to tackle the challenges here too. Jürgen, a wonderful good morning. Your thoughts too, and then we go directly into the closing round for today.

Good morning, dear Yasmin, good morning everyone in the room. Heartfelt thanks for your contributions that you’ve made so far. They show once again how highly complex this topic is. I’ll bring in two thoughts briefly without going into depth, which would certainly be necessary, what I consider to be the essential reason, or what I’ve analyzed for myself, that we’re getting into this skilled labor shortage. Just the term itself, allow me a side swipe, that already raises my neck hairs, because that means, we’re looking for skilled workers, and we’re not looking for slaves, we already have those. There’s a background to why I say that, but I won’t elaborate on that further, but it leads to what Marc already mentioned, what actually is a skilled worker? What makes someone a skilled worker? And I looked at that with our highest authority in this country, responsible for skilled workers and supplying the economy with skilled workers, that’s our Ministry of Economic Affairs, to find out how they see the starting basis for this skilled labor shortage. Why do we have the skilled labor shortage? And there three positions come up, everyone can look it up. That’s one, demographics, the age group development, no need to talk about that. Two, digitalization. And three, decarbonization. If I now say completely value-free, demographics, this problem of the shift in the age pyramid, has been known for decades. Digitalization has taken effect, in my opinion, sustainably, also affecting the labor market, at the latest at the beginning of the 90s. And decarbonization is, let me put it cautiously, an economic steering mechanism, that can certainly, certainly, as you can understand, be discussed differently. So, and then I ask myself, and that’s the first point, then I’ll stop too, is the starting position to justify why we have a skilled labor shortage in this country even the right one? I’ll leave that in the room. And I pick up a position, I believe it was Marc or you, with regard to professions connected to the healthcare system, nursing professions and so on. The second point for me, where I have a big question mark, still one of my favorite topics, all topics. Do we, we as a society, we as individuals in society, still have a future-bearing idea, a future-sustaining idea, of what performance means. And I’ll just say one more thing, we now have not just a first labor market, a second labor market. The second labor market is the labor market that’s provided for by the state through subsidies. We’ve had a third labor market in Munich since May of this year, that also works with subsidies, to bring long-term unemployed people, who’ve had no employment for longer than two years, into at least a 20-hour job. And subsidies, dear ones, subsidies for an economist is just like a term win-win situation or no alternative. There I say briefly and succinctly, something’s not right there. And to round that off, once more. In my view, the starting basis for the analysis of why we have this is already not right. And two, because we no longer value performance as such to the extent that people feel obliged to generate performance. And now I come to the third point. Let me remind you, we had a really essential term, that surprisingly hasn’t popped up today, that we had recently. Those are Future Skills. I’m missing on this page of our federal ministry, that they don’t just deal with the status quo, but that they also look ahead and say, and where will we stand in 20 years? And I think just these two or three questions are worth several hours of discussion. But I didn’t want to miss bringing that in, and wish you a nice day still. Thank you for listening, dear ones.

Yes, wonderful. Thank you, thank you so much. And I had actually mentioned the term Future Skills and mega-learning earlier too in the context of accompanying people and relearning, so to speak, being able to perform new activities. So what’s needed for that too, because we don’t have this possibility, to always do new training, degrees, so to speak, and it takes a long time, but also being allowed to learn certain things on the job partly. And at the same time, in the same breath, I briefly mentioned it, but it probably, might have gotten lost, because it was really only in a subordinate clause probably. And thank you, thank you so much for these additional aspects you brought in too. And let’s gladly, at this point for today, because we’re already just after nine, move into the closing round. If Marc, Wolfgang, if you’d like to dock in again, continue, then gladly, and then the closing word for today’s room. And namely in order. I don’t know, Wolfgang, did you want to speak first? Then let’s do it backwards. Then we’ll do Wolfgang and then Marc today.

Sorry, Marc, that I pushed ahead. Wasn’t my intention. I thought I was next.

Yes, conclusion. I think labor market development is very, very challenging for all participants from every perspective. But I think ultimately these times of change and constantly changing parameters are simply opportunities. There’s a lot of potential for growth there, also for new paths. And that’s why my appeal is simply, be courageous both as an entrepreneur and as an employee, learn, be optimistic, adapt to circumstances, and I believe then good employees will also find good jobs that match their abilities, and especially their purpose too, and it’s totally important that people do what they enjoy. I think that’s the most important thing of all. That’s why I find labor market development, ultimately of course challenging, but also very rich in opportunity.

Yes, thank you, thank you so much. Marc.

Dear Yasemin, thank you for your explanation too, with the job-sharing part. It became clear to me again, let’s not ask the question, what doesn’t work, but how could it work? And then I came to the thought too, for me too, let’s ask new questions, because they give us new answers. New answers give us new possibilities for action, and new possibilities for action lead to new results. All starting from the questions we ask ourselves.

Yes wonderful, thank you, thank you so much. Yes, and accordingly we’re looking at very different topics under this overarching theme Pioneering Spirit with brAIn, to really break down the complexity to a certain degree on one hand, and even though we do that, we also notice how complex the individual topics are that we look at, and then it’ll also be about bringing the topics back together again. And tomorrow we’ll continue talking about unconditional basic income, because that’s also a topic that keeps coming up, and also has to do with various developments, including labor market developments too. And on one hand we certainly see solution possibilities, as also became clear today in this discussion. And at the same time it’s also important to nevertheless look at what this unconditional basic income actually is about, and how unconditional a basic income can actually be, is also the question we actually want to deal with there. And accordingly I’m really looking forward to you all joining again tomorrow morning at 8. I wish you a wonderful day and hopefully see you tomorrow. Until then.