#810 Insight & Creativity

Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: What influence do creativity and a spirit of experimentation have on gaining insight? That’s the question we explored in Room #810 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme of “Insight.” Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…

Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.

A very good morning to you, and today we’re continuing with our overarching theme of insight and gaining insight, and under this theme, today we have insight and creativity, and we want to talk about what influence creativity, or creativity and a spirit of experimentation, have on insight and gaining insight. I’m really curious about that too. And before we get into the content for today, I’d like to briefly mention that we had a giveaway over the weekend, and I’ll announce the winner a bit later today, so that anyone who took part in it can follow along — I’ll do that a bit later, I hope I don’t forget. Right, so that’s one thing. The other thing is, as every morning, we of course want to open up our reflection space together again today. So, as always, you’re warmly invited to join and step into the exchange. And we have three small rules to follow: a profile photo where you’re clearly recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. We agreed together on Saturday that from now on we’ll record all rooms, so there’s a red dot in the title here too. So, just a quick reminder that a recording is running in the background. That means the people who join and step into the interaction are agreeing to that, so you know it’s being recorded and that it will also be used for PR purposes. But not just for PR purposes — in the future we also want to make various transcriptions accessible, so you’ll have the chance afterward not just to listen back to things, but also to pull information out of the material more easily, so you can use it for further processing too. And if anyone doesn’t want that for whatever reason, wants to stay anonymous, or whatever the background is, you can of course still use the chat, because there you have the chance to bring in questions and thoughts too, and they’ll be taken into account accordingly. And today, as I said, we’re talking about the topic of insight and creativity. So what influence do creativity and a spirit of experimentation have on insight, or on gaining insight? That’s the topic. And I already have a first hand raised — let me bring Layla up. A very good morning, dear Layla. What do you have to say about that?

A very good morning. I’m a little nervous now because I’m being recorded. I hope — no, I’ve actually done that myself before too, for myself, to listen back to. And that’s really a good idea, Yasemin, because I think it’s also quite good for the people on stage, because then you can listen to it again afterward. And I think that’s actually quite good for gaining insight, because then you can not just recognize things, but also look at what insights you gain from the dialogue, for yourself and for others. And I like listening — well, I don’t just like listening to myself, I also like listening to others. But when you listen to yourself like that — because sometimes you only half tune in, that’s a funny saying, I sometimes say “do you actually always listen to yourself?” or “do you sometimes just half tune in?” — and that’s actually quite good, because then you can look back and see, how did I actually do that? And you can go into reflection, how did the dialogue go, to do a bit of a review. So, your topic is insight and creativity. I think that’s great, because for me creativity is being in a flow state, and insight is also a bit like that — this “can I let something go, or do I have to hold on to something?” As I’ve told you before, because for me this image of letting go isn’t so nice, but not everything is worth holding on to. And creativity, for me, is really about things simply happening. And I think, with insight, it also has to do with the fact that I then simply observe it for a while, the way you always say at the end of your room, that it can keep working on you afterward. And that’s why I think this definitely has something to do with each other, and that insight fuels creativity and creativity fuels insight.

Wonderful, thank you so much. You’ve basically already brought in a few creative ideas yourself — how you can use these recordings afterward, for example, or what for — I think that’s wonderful. Thank you so much for that. So that means we can keep using creativity, or the spirit of experimentation, so to speak, to ultimately generate insights from it too. So it definitely makes sense to keep stepping into these different phases, where it’s also possible to get out of, let’s say, the hamster wheel we sometimes get caught in, in order to deliberately create creative moments for ourselves, or moments where we can simply experiment, in the interest of insight or gaining insight — by taking the time for it, having the opportunity for it, and thereby getting our brain into the right kind of activation too. Sonja, a very good morning. What do you have to say about that?

Yes, a very good morning to the round. I think that it’s not just a spirit of experimentation that can lead us to insights we never anticipated, but that crises also push us a bit into creativity, and through that we get a huge gain in insight. So this being forced from outside, being forced to rethink through events and situations, is also a really big push toward gaining new insights. That’s just a point I wanted to bring in too, because it’s not always voluntary — sometimes it’s steered from outside, or it just happens that way. And most of the time, if we go through it with openness, we’re rewarded with a gain in insight, and a much richer one than in situations where we’re moving within our comfort zone and familiar surroundings. Thank you.

Wonderful, thank you so much. Yes, absolutely. That means, especially when we look at it from the perspective of change, there are always two key motivators — the joy of moving toward something, and moving away from something, so especially in a situation of suffering, and the crisis falls into that category too, of course. That means if I have a circumstance, an environment, where I don’t feel comfortable, where my existence is threatened or whatever, that forces us into a certain kind of creativity too, in the sense of finding options or alternatives. So in that sense it also goes a bit in the direction of finding the silver lining in misfortune. That means I have the opportunity to actually take action, maybe through a compulsion or through suffering I’m experiencing, to make the best of the situation, and maybe even have completely new creative ideas I’d otherwise never have come up with, because I might not have found myself in the situation of having to deal with what I could do differently. Thank you so much for that. Yes, go ahead, you wanted to add something, Sonja, and then Layla.

An example just occurred to me — if someone loses their job, say, and before that had already been thinking about what else they enjoy, since they weren’t really that satisfied with their work, what talents do they have, what excites them, and they somehow can’t come up with any ideas. And the moment the job falls away, they’re suddenly much more open again to sensing, to these new directions, and might have the insight, in the best case, that it was really good that this job is no longer there, because now they finally start sensing again, and dare to let go of something and try something new, and through that can sense and experience what fulfills them much, much more. And that can be a huge gift too. That’s the example that came to mind — that you might have already wanted to think in that direction beforehand, but weren’t able to find any insights there, because the circumstances weren’t right.

Wonderful. Thank you so much. Layla.

I have a question for both of you on that, because we’ve talked about it a few times before. And you know, I have a bit of an issue with this term “comfort zone.” I once heard, from the cradle to the grave, habits are the only true thing. In my comfort zone, I think of myself as a couch potato who just isn’t trying hard enough and could change her life, and probably has that saying hanging as a wall decal behind her and doesn’t change anything because of it. But I know what you mean, Sonja, because I really had to smile, because I had to think of a move I did. Some Tunisians helped me with it. And I have to say, I’m being a bit — well, in the national anthem it says something like the courage of all Tunisians, so you’d die for Tunisia, it’s a bit dramatic. But let me get a bit nationalistic here and say Tunisians are very creative. And they really are, maybe because they’re not always in the comfort zone. And during this move, we needed to hang up a lamp, and I didn’t have any tools, because I just don’t have that kind of thing. And then he looks at me and says, you know what we’ll do — this is Tunisian now — go to the kitchen and get a knife. And then he hung the lamp for me with the knife, and it’s still hanging there. It’s been hanging there for five years, and he did an amazing job. You can’t tell any tradesperson in the world that, they’d throw their hands up. So why do I still have an issue with this? I have an issue with it because “comfort zone” reminds me of, well, you’re not trying hard enough, you’re not up against the wall enough yet, then you’ll get creative. But my father also says an Arab woman, a Tunisian woman, makes a six-course meal out of nothing. My mother is Swabian, and my grandparents were in the war, and they’re German. They also made a lot out of nothing. Stefan Frädrich, you’ll have to tell me the spelling again later, Yasemin, said, well, if you get creative in your comfort zone, that’s a beautiful thing too. But I ask myself, and now we get to the actual question — do I really need these emergency situations, because for me creativity is always also something playful. For me creativity is thinking outside the box. For me creativity is having no pressure and working, or really playing, out of that lightness, and coming up with things that way. Would this have been a test situation, Yasemin? At the start I came up on stage — I don’t know if I’d have been that creative then, though probably within a set framework. And for me, crises are existential crises, and I don’t know, if your basic needs aren’t met, whether you can still be creative and generate insights. Long speech, but maybe you understood what I meant.

Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. And we can look at that in a moment too. I’d like to give Sonja the chance to respond to that as well, and I’d also like to use the opportunity to repeat the room rules again, to make sure no one raises their hand and then doesn’t get a turn without knowing why. So, a few reminders: first, the room is being recorded, which means anyone who comes up on stage is agreeing to that per se. If you’d rather not, feel free to use the chat to bring in your thoughts, which I’ll pick up on too. And we have our three small rules: a profile photo where you’re clearly recognizable, then first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio, simply to make sure, on the one hand, that these are serious contributions and not Clubhouse trolls, and on the other hand, another reminder about the recording, that you’re agreeing to that. And I’d also like to use this moment — I mentioned at the start that I wanted to come back to the fact that we had a giveaway on Saturday. It was for a ticket to the live online event Neuroscience for Practice, and some of you took part, and today I’d like to announce the winner, so those who took part also hear about it today and don’t wonder why it wasn’t already announced. And on the other hand, there’ll of course also be a written notification for those who aren’t here today. So, on Neuroscience for Practice — maybe just a quick bit of background: it actually came about because there was supposed to be a fairly large online congress. We were all looking forward to it. But the organizer canceled the event. As a speaker for that event, I decided to switch up what I’d originally planned and host my own offering on the same days instead, since tickets had already been sold through the Deep Talk too, to give people the choice of either getting a full refund on their ticket or using the opportunity on the 13th and 14th to dedicate themselves to this topic with me in an exclusive small group. And yes, I’m really looking forward to that, which is why I’ve also brought the link along here, for those who might not be among the winners, so you still have the chance to join too. The countdown is running now, there are only a few days left. It’s a relatively small, exclusive group, and it’ll stay that way — it’s not going to be heavily promoted elsewhere, it’s meant to be an exclusive circle. A few more people are welcome to join if they’re interested. It’s on the 13th and 14th of April, and you have the chance, via the link you see with us, to click straight through and book yourself in, so to speak. And as for the winner — several people took part, and this time our Wolfgang Jung won. I’m really looking forward to that and I’m already very curious about this small round with Wolfgang. I don’t actually know if he’s here today; otherwise he’ll of course be notified accordingly and I’m sure he’ll be delighted. Let’s see. So, that was just a quick mention. And for everyone else who took part but didn’t win this time, feel free to use the link and the chance to join, live online, exclusive, in a really small group, on the topic of Neuroscience for Practice. It’s about insights from brain research and their relevance for business and practice, as well as specific ways to apply them and best practices, which I’d love to explore with you together — it’s two three-hour sessions, from 2 to 5pm on each of the two days, and no travel or anything required, so it’s really convenient for you too. And with that, I’d like to come back to what you just said, Layla, and first give Sonja the chance to respond to it.

Yes, thank you. On the topic of comfort zone, unfortunately, I wanted to add something — I think I’ve mentioned this in another round before, but it fits well here, because I get the impression that the topic of comfort zone has a negative connotation for you. And if I look at it from a neuroscience perspective, one thing that definitely comes to mind is that there are simply conditions in the brain that, during a crisis, mean we can form far more connections. Because our cerebrum gets flooded with noradrenaline and thereby has much more processing capacity per neuron, and can connect much better with other neurons overall. And that’s creativity in its purest form — when we form connections that otherwise wouldn’t be possible, because the neurochemical basis simply isn’t available otherwise. And there’s another big lever, a big effect on creativity, and that’s willingness to change. And we don’t bring that as strongly into the comfort zone as we do into a crisis. And that’s why we try out things that occur to us more readily during a crisis than in a comfort zone, if it’s just an idea that flits by, because we don’t take it seriously enough and don’t bring the willingness to pursue it. That’s just something I wanted to add about the comfort zone, to make a case for it. Because the comfort zone isn’t something negative — it’s something we really need, and it’s actually vital. But it just doesn’t help us as easily to get into new patterns or try new things. For that you need a lot of real passion, intrinsic motivation, and that’s simply not always there. That’s why sometimes you need a crisis to get your backside moving.

Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Yes, sometimes you need a crisis to get your backside moving — you put that nicely, Sonja. And in that context, it might also be worth distinguishing: there are situations where we really can’t necessarily become creative — that might be the case when we’re in a kind of shock-freeze, or similar. It’s possible that certain activities or areas of the brain get disrupted or switched off for a brief moment, because something else is going on. But that’s not a permanent state. So especially when we talk about something like a crisis, we’re talking, I’d assume, about a situation we’re in, for example, that we’re in for a longer stretch of time, where it might become necessary. So if we take the Corona example, for instance, when the lockdowns came, a lot of people had to think about it — what are possible alternatives, how do we deal with this? That’s not a situation where we don’t have the chance to become creative — we have plenty of time. It’s a bit different if, say, I’m driving and something happens suddenly that I have to react to in that moment — that’s not a state where I can become creative, so to speak, in inverted commas, because on the one hand it happens in a flash, and the reaction, in the interest of survival, has to be there instantly. And that’s not necessarily about creative solutions in the sense we’d probably understand creativity. So in that context it’s difficult, because I can’t call up that creativity in the moment. Still, I have decision options, choices — I decide within a split second for one thing or another. Now you could of course say, that was really creative, how I reacted in that moment, but I’d only realize that in hindsight. And that wouldn’t be the state I’m in for a longer stretch, where I can really think about things rationally, in inverted commas. Layla, does that help? And by the way, you asked about the name again — it’s Dr. Stefan Frädrich, with an “r.”

Thank you so much. And I just checked, the 13th and 14th — I’ll have to check my calendar later, because I’m booking that. Just as an aside. Yes, that helps, and I just realized, because Sonja said it has a negative connotation for you, I noticed, yes, that’s true, and then I just thought about why that is. But I don’t want to just use myself as an example, but also this generalization, because I learned that here in these rooms too. I’d done it before, but now I do it really, really consciously. And I think it’s the case that, if we go by socialization, if you grew up in circumstances — and we also had the marshmallow experiment, that was the one with money, if you offer people money now, if I grew up in existential crises, now 100 euros or 500 at the end of the year — I know I would very often have said, and I’d probably still automatically say today, just give me the 100 and not the 500, because that’s this long-term thinking. And if I look at my socialization — and I had a great one, I have wonderful parents, it’s nice that this is being recorded — mom, dad, thank you so much for everything, you did a wonderful job — and still, it’s the case that I thought sale was a brand name. Still, it’s the case that I simply didn’t have a lot of things and had to work for almost everything myself, and that’s probably why it has a negative connotation. I’m not the only one in the world for whom that’s the case, but I still believe I’m creative. And now I’ve just been thinking about why that is, because you said, well, it’s like, maybe otherwise you’d have the whole alphabet, option A, B, C, D, E, F, G. And then you only think A or B, because I know from crisis situations that you get tunnel vision. If you’re neurodivergent, actually like me, and you have ADHD, then I’ve heard from psychologists that in crisis situations you actually become calmer, because you have an issue with dopamine and noradrenaline release. Which means, actually, when other people get agitated, I can become calmer. But I don’t know if that leads to insights. I do know that I always think outside the box. And this negative connotation — I was just wondering, Yasemin, whether there’s anything on that in brain research. Because I can’t change my brain now. I can’t change my beliefs. I know that, because there are coaches who say you can. I don’t belong to that camp. I think you can overwrite them. I think you’ve said something similar before too — that you look at them and then overwrite them. And the question is, to what extent is it possible to overwrite them, so you can get into that creativity. Because the insight that you have them is already great. But unfortunately, for me, that’s just a recognition, from my point of view, the way I’ve noticed it. And the insight would then be to overwrite it, and the question is how you do that, to then get into creativity. Because, Sonja, you’re so right, I feel like I’m sitting on the couch like a couch potato not trying hard enough, and like someone’s sitting in front of me telling me, well, you should have, you could have, try harder — and I always think, well, I’ve been trying hard my whole life already.

Thank you so much. I’d like to pick up a few different points there. First, I’d like to mention again the book we published together with the former co-hosts. I notice it’s getting loud in the background — one moment please, I’ll just close the window. Okay, I’m back — otherwise we’d have all the background noise on the recording too, and it distracts me while speaking as well. So, together with the former co-hosts Mona Tenjo, Jennifer Pickhan, and Jan-Marc Pickhan, we also published a book on this, it’s called “Abenteuer Unternehmer. Krise ist, was du draus machst” (German only), and I can really recommend it in this context, because it looks at crisis again from various different perspectives, and I’d like to tie into that here too — namely, it’s partly also about what we even define as a crisis, what a crisis actually is. And here I also picked something up in the book from the sociologist Oevermann, I believe that’s his name. He approached the concept of crisis from a completely different angle, and I find that perspective wonderful. Namely, if we approach the topic sociologically and try to define crisis not as an exceptional situation, which many of us assume a crisis to be, but essentially as the normal, everyday situation — and that we only experience the crisis as a crisis at the moment we lack the action routines for it. And here we’re very quickly back at the concept of the comfort zone in this context, because if we think about it, we have countless challenges every day that we basically master. But they’re no longer challenges for us, because we’ve learned to deal with them. Whether that’s finding a parking spot, or walking, which I learn as a child, or whatever else. So basically, all of that is stuff we learned over time, growing up, becoming an adult. Even as adults, we keep having situations — even when we come into a new work environment, for example, change jobs, or whatever. There too we keep having situations we experience. And over time we develop experiential knowledge. Maybe we get a transfer of knowledge from colleagues, in the sense of, how do I handle situation A, B, C? So a lot in our lives is geared toward learning how to handle certain situations that are very likely to repeat themselves, so to speak, in these contexts, learning how to deal with them. And from that, action routines develop. And because we have these action routines, we don’t experience a lot of things as a crisis, even though, for someone else who’s completely new in a work situation, for example — you know this, you get a new position, and you might feel a bit uncomfortable at first. You’re looking forward to the position, but it’s still unfamiliar. And that, in principle, is already a kind of crisis situation too. But this experience is what makes the difference. And back to the crisis — I’ve taken the Corona example, I find that a nice example in this context too, to illustrate it. There were companies that were already quite digitally set up. They also experienced the situation as a crisis, but not to the same degree as someone who hadn’t done anything in the direction of digitalization yet and really had to start from zero. For them it was experienced as a much bigger crisis. Then there are companies — and there’s an example of this in the book too — if we look, for example, at the automotive sector or similar, there are definitely companies that build their processes from the outset in such a way that they don’t refine the car, or the production of the car, to the point of planning every single detail to get the perfect car onto the market, but instead go in from the start and say, this is the first shot, now the car goes out, now we wait, so to speak, for feedback from buyers, and the processes are already set up accordingly to make improvements afterward. While another comparable company in the same industry has set up its processes differently, and they don’t wait for feedback — they want to bring the hundred percent perfect car to market from the very start. They’ve aligned completely different processes. Now if both of these cars need to have a kind of recall started, because something really did go wrong somewhere, you can imagine that one company, in the same situation, doesn’t experience this as a crisis at all, because the processes are already geared and set up to deal with it, while the other company, in the exact same situation, falls into complete panic, so to speak. So that’s why I find this approach, from this angle, really nice too. And that gives us a nice transition to this comfort zone. Basically, the comfort zone is the area where we feel comfortable and safe, because in that area, whatever challenges we’ve had in our lives in the past, we’ve developed action routines for it, so we can handle it well. And our brain is basically geared toward being as comfortable as possible — if there’s no reason, for example a threat or something like that, then I just stay in that area, because it gives me orientation, it gives me security. I’ve already learned and developed certain action routines, and I can apply them wonderfully now. And it would also be bad for our brain if we were constantly in an experienced crisis situation, because then we’d constantly have to keep developing new action routines, endure uncertainty, and so on and so forth. So in a sense, we also need the comfort zone. And neither the one nor the other should be judged as positive or negative — both situations have positive and negative sides, depending on what I make of it, how I handle it, depending on the context. And even if, say, in an experienced crisis situation, it actually leads to me losing my shop or my livelihood or whatever, we can later, with what we’ve learned, go back into reinterpreting it and look at what the silver lining in the misfortune was — there are countless examples of this — some layoff leads to me losing my job, I don’t get another job, what do I do, then maybe I go self-employed or something similar and make the best of the situation. And looking back, there are people who then say, what luck that happened to me, because otherwise I probably wouldn’t have handled the situation in a way that led me to choose option C or D, which I might otherwise have been afraid of, in inverted commas. And so, that’s one thing. The other thing I wanted to pick up again is the question about overwriting. And I personally don’t like using that term so much, because “overwriting” suggests a bit as if we had the option, like with a hard drive, to delete something. We actually don’t have that, in terms of how our brain functions. We can’t delete it. It doesn’t work — everything is stored. What we can do, though, and this does work, is to overlay it. And specifically, we can very consciously overlay experiences we’ve had with positive experiences. That means I can think about various things — what can I do to gather positive experiences in a certain context — and through these positive experiences, and repeating various positive experiences, so to speak overlay this negative connotation, this negative experience I had in that context. It’s still possible — and this is exactly what happens with trauma or similar — that it can suddenly pop back up again, precisely because I can’t delete it, that some situation, for example experienced negatively again, can be the trigger that makes the overlay disappear again, so to speak, and the negative thing breaks through again too. That’s also an indication that it’s not “deletable.” But the more positive experiences I overlay, the more I succeed, and the more it becomes possible for me, to gradually handle the other thing positively too — especially if it’s not something pathological. I hope that helps. Sonja, would you like to add anything to that?

Yes, gladly. I wanted to say something more on the topic of crisis too — from the perspective of the brain, at the moment we’re able to make predictions. Our brain is a prediction machine, in inverted commas. That means it makes assumptions about what’s coming next, and based on that assumption it checks, do I already have some programs that provide me with action recommendations, and if that’s not the case, then we’re forced to work out our options for action first. And that costs an incredible amount of energy. In neuroscience that’s called complexity cost, when we first have to derive something. And that’s incredibly exhausting. That’s why we can’t possibly sustain that as a permanent state, because our available energy is limited, and it would make us sick if we stayed in such a crisis situation permanently. And that’s why it’s so important to develop these action routines. And with the examples you gave, with the two companies — for the company that’s already set up to get feedback and adjust to that feedback, the predictability is basically already there, that there will be feedback, even if you don’t know exactly what it’ll look like, but you’ve already been able to develop action routines for it, you already have programs, and therefore need less complexity cost, and that’s why they can adapt much better. And on the topic of overlays, I wanted to add too, that the patterns we’ve developed are often not just strongly formed, but also come with what I’ll call a fiber-optic cable, so to speak — a thick myelin sheath — and that means they transmit the stimulus much faster. That speed is exactly the little advantage for that stimulus, which then breaks through again if another trigger comes along that hasn’t been processed or rewired differently yet — the original stimulus just comes through again. And yes, that’s just a point I wanted to add. This myelin sheath breaks down very, very slowly. And that’s why we find it so hard to shed these habits. It depends a bit on how early they were formed, because in our younger years we build up myelin much faster than in later years. That’s why very old patterns need to be worked on for much longer than patterns we only developed later.

Wonderful. Thank you so much. Layla, go ahead.

Yes, so I was just thinking to myself — that was really exciting and helpful just now, thank you for that, that generates insight. And if I may say this briefly — you know what’s great about this being recorded? You just gave me a book recommendation and I was about to — I was already getting all excited, okay, where’s my pen, I mustn’t forget this — and then I thought, no, this is being recorded, I can listen to it again later. So that’s just a quick side note. I was just thinking to myself, you’re both right. Because it’s always a question of what you see in yourself and what you see in others. And let me just quickly close my door too, one second. And if I go by myself, I have to say, I also get bored quickly with habits. That’s really true. That’s why I don’t like them so much. But I don’t really like crises either. But now I’ve been thinking, I’m a mentor, and I’m also involved in the second state exam, I administer it. And what I noticed as a mentor is — I once said to someone, everything went so smoothly for you. And she said, yes. And I said, yes. And now we’re in a situation, because I told the person that she does things well, but the things we’d discussed, she kept doing them the same way, and I said, well, but you need to change this pattern, because we’d already discussed this so many times — and then the other person got teary-eyed, and that really hurt me, because on the relationship level, I always try to build a good foundation, but I also want to create a learning success and generate insights. What I noticed here with this sentence was — because everything had run in these patterns for her up to now, this just confirmed something for me, gaining insight into it a bit — that you might always keep doing things a certain way if it’s worked so far. And now I was just thinking, what’s it like if you have success experiences your whole life, if everything runs smoothly your whole life? Then we’d be at a topic like helicopter parents. What should you take off children’s hands? What shouldn’t you take off their hands? Where’s the learning success? Where does the insight get generated? And then I thought to myself, yes, and that’s actually why it wasn’t so bad for me, because I was, in a way, forced to become creative. I actually didn’t like routines much either, and in this situation I noticed that, because everything up to now had been crowned with success and ran so smoothly, it was really hard for the other person to break out of those tracks. And to go from that example to my next question — can you get used to crisis situations? Can that also become a comfort zone? Can you also become creative then? Because there are a lot of people who always live from one day to the next, from one moment to the next. And they really lean on that, saying, okay, that’s what makes me creative. But the point for me is, I think that’s neutral, just like money is neutral. Poor people don’t have a better character, and rich people don’t have a better character. Likewise, people who end up in crisis-mode aren’t better people. And the people who run in their tracks, whom we call boring or conventional, aren’t worse people either, because habits are beneficial too.

Yes, wonderful. Thank you so much. I saw you raised your hand too, Sonja, and I’ll come to you again in a moment too, briefly, because there’s a question in the chat again from the person who raised their hand, whether they can speak. I already repeated the room rules once — happy to repeat them again, though I won’t bring anyone else up today for time reasons. From about quarter to, I’ll stop accepting any more hand raises, so we can wrap up on time and round the room off properly. It’s always capped at a maximum of 60 minutes. Just a quick reminder, also for future rooms, that we have three small rules: a profile photo where you’re clearly recognizable as a person, then first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. In the past, that’s helped us make sure we have serious contributions and no trolls on stage. And this rule applies equally to everyone — including, by the way, community members, some of whom I know sometimes swap out their photo in between for some campaign or other, simply in the interest of fairness, so it applies equally to everyone. Layla, I’ve also shared the book title and the link again in the chat for you, so you can access it. Because after a follow-up question came up yesterday too, I referenced it again. Yes, it’s being recorded right now and will be published accordingly. But since this is a new situation right now, everything’s still being prepared in the background, and I can’t yet say exactly when the first episodes will actually be accessible. So I’ve already put it in the chat for you, so you don’t have to wait if you want quicker access to the information. Sonja, go ahead.

I wanted to respond to Layla’s question, whether you can get used to crisis, whether you can get used to crises too. And I’d say a very clear yes to that, because I’m an example of that myself. I’m used to living in crises. As a child, I already experienced so many crises that this is my usual mode of living, in which I generate my best, best ideas, find solutions, am performance-oriented, and still stay very calm. And that’s helped me a lot in my adult life, to deal with change, even abrupt change, much better. And I’ve often been able to observe this in my professional life — when others get frantic because things aren’t going the way they were planned, and lose their orientation, that’s exactly the moment where I become totally calm, collect myself, and find a really clear, sharp view of the whole situation, and become very solution-oriented. So it is a crisis, but it’s not associated with agitation, more like “ah yes, I know this, this feels familiar, this is exactly my mode.” And I don’t know whose quote this is, but I think it’s from Max Frisch, that crisis is a wonderful thing, if you just take away the aftertaste of catastrophe. Something like that, that quote, and I just find it really fitting. If it didn’t feel so terrible, crisis would be the very best, yes, those would be the very best phases, because that’s where we create wonderful things. Thank you.

Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and here we’re at this aspect of training too — that means, if I regularly train myself in certain situations, and crisis also has certain patterns, so to speak, that take place, if you look at it on the abstract level, the meta-level, that are, in a way, recurring in how you deal with them. So if I’ve learned how to best handle myself in crisis situations, because I’ve experienced crises more often, for example something like what you just said between the lines, Sonja, this getting calmer — staying calm is one of the strategies that you can consciously bring into this sequence, and that’s actually described in this book I just recommended to you too. There you have the chance to step into this training a bit, so to speak, and this training, I can back that up not just from a scientific perspective, but very practically too. For many years, alongside my studies, I worked for an airline, and there we constantly had, so to speak, a crisis situation, because in flight dispatch, we had, basically every day, the situation that relatively shortly before departure, things would come up that you hadn’t counted on at all — always different things. Sometimes a passenger was missing, sometimes a passenger collapsed, sometimes it was something else entirely. So always different constellations, where decisions really had to be made within seconds, always with the goal of getting the plane out of the airport on time. And I personally went through a pretty tough and good training ground there, over many years of practice, and that training lets me transfer a lot of things to other areas today too. So on the one hand, developing a certain foresight, and even if we can’t plan everything, approaching it with a certain openness, and then, in the moment it happens, not this — well, of course there’s still a surprise effect, that’s logical, because it’s an unexpected situation — but then calling up this process-like, pattern-like response. Okay, quickly gather yourself, what are the next steps needed, how do I handle this, take the meta perspective, and so on. And that can definitely be learned. Layla, would you like to add something to that?

Well, I’ve just realized for myself that I do believe that’s the case — that you can learn patterns, even in crisis. And the way you two just explained it was really enlightening for me, that it’s actually the case that you can get used to it to some extent. And I’ve just been thinking, okay, what are actually the best conditions to then become creative and generate insights from it. Because I have to say, in my life — and my father did this even more, and my mother too — making the best of crisis situations, or how do I do that in a crisis situation? The shop I worked at, which financed my studies, burned down. And it really was — two weeks before, there’d been a fire drill. And then on that day I went there, I told my old boss this recently too, because I thanked her warmly for it, that she employed me during that time, because that job financed my studies — I said, do you remember that? Because I walked there that morning when my shift would have started, and I walked up and said to the firefighter, maybe I thought it was another fire drill, I thought, let me through, I have to work there. And then he looked at me and said, you’re not working here today. And then I went and the shop that financed my studies, I mean really, tuition fees and everything else, I stood there and it was on fire, it burned down, and there was smoke. And then my boss’s tears started running, and my tears started running. And that was an existential crisis. And then I noticed, oh, I’m still creative, because I became completely calm. And what did I do? I went out at lunchtime and found myself another job. Of course it was still, how do I do this, how does it go from here? But I knew exactly, if I don’t have this money, I can’t pay my tuition, then I can’t pay my rent, then I can’t pay for everything else. That was really important to me. And I just didn’t fall into that “flight, fight, or freeze” — I didn’t fall into freeze, I just chose a different option, and I didn’t really think about it for long. So I’m really grateful that I can do that, but I also think — and now we’re back at the topic of creativity — that this calm, because I no longer have to wait tables on weekends, I no longer have to work on New Year’s Eve when everyone else is working. I have fewer crises in my life than I used to, and yet I’m grateful for it. Now I’m just wondering, how does that relate to your title, “insight and creativity”? Is one better or worse? I know I’m going into evaluation now, Yasemin, but I sometimes have the feeling, through this calm I now have, it’s nice that I experienced that, but I notice that, because I no longer have to decide from one day to the next, what’s coming next, and think from one month to the next — if I don’t get this shift, I can’t finance my living expenses, if I can’t finance my living expenses, I can’t keep studying, if I can’t keep studying, my future is ruined, then I have to pay back my student loan myself — what’s actually better now? Or is there a better or worse at all? Or if there isn’t a better or worse, Yasemin, Sonja — are there conditions that help us with that?

Yes, wonderful. Thank you so much for that great bridge, because that would have been the next thing I wanted to bring up too, before we actually move into the closing round in a moment. Sonja, I saw that you want to say something about that too, and you’ll definitely get the chance. I’d actually also noted down in my notes the importance of calm and relaxation for gaining insight. Because we often think, when it comes to aspects like creativity, for example, maybe, well, how can I use creativity techniques or something. So here too there are a lot of methods and techniques I can use to get into a certain kind of creativity. At the same time, there’s this other pole too — what role does calm and relaxation actually play here for gaining insight, especially in the context of creativity? You might know this, that in moments where, for example, we change rooms, or go out into nature, just take a walk or something similar, suddenly through this calm and relaxation we allow ourselves in that moment, incredible ideas suddenly come up, and we’re almost like daydreaming, coupled with ideas. And that’s not because we’re actively thinking about a problem-solution, but because, for example, through this walking in nature, this connection to nature sets certain processes in motion. And that’s why this point was important to me anyway, I wanted to bring it in too. Sonja, feel free to respond to that directly.

Yes, that’s a wonderful point you’ve raised there, because when we go out into nature, so many different things feed into our creativity and our ability to find solutions. One thing is that, through the heightened sensory experience, sensory perception, we’re much more neurally integrated — so simply many more areas of the brain are communicating with each other right then, and just because of that fact alone we’re much more solution-oriented, and we’re really with ourselves — those are two things that both let us be calm and enable solutions. That’s already something wonderful in itself. And the second point that flows into that, and that’s possible without nature too, is that we change our environment, and the moment we no longer have a completely familiar environment, we automatically have to engage a bit with our surroundings. That mostly happens unconsciously, because we’ve learned to orient ourselves quite incidentally, when we’re looking for a street or need to orient ourselves somewhere. But the moment the environment is too unfamiliar, it draws so much attention that we can no longer focus on our problem. We notice that, for example, when we’re talking to someone about complex topics while going for a walk. And the moment we’re too mentally taxed, we stop walking for a moment. That means we can no longer manage these automatic processes of basic orientation together, at the same time, with solving this question, or answering this question. And the moment we’ve found an answer, sorted our thoughts, we can keep walking. I find that really fascinating — or that we turn the radio down while driving, because we can’t manage the simultaneity of processing so many stimuli at once. And from that we can see quite nicely just how taxing something actually is. So, basic takeaway: if we change our environment, we get into creativity. But it mustn’t be too much change, not too much that’s new. Thank you.

Wonderful. Thank you so much. I think we can absolutely leave that as it is. And especially in relation to the question, Layla, about good or bad, right or wrong — to come back to that too, just like with a lot of other topics we’ve picked up, right down to the statement “water is healthy” — it’s always context-dependent. That means it’s basically not an either-or, but we need the different phases in life, and they all have their place and their space. So we don’t really need to go into evaluation here, in the sense of what’s better, or what’s good or bad — there’s always a certain context involved. There are moments when we’re open, also open to insight and gaining insight, open to creativity. There are moments when calm and relaxation might do us good, but we might not manage it, which also goes along with various other influences from outside. And all of that always has its place and its space, so to speak. And here it’s always important — and here we’re back at the aspect that humans aren’t just social beings, but especially also emotional beings — to keep giving space to our feelings, and to look at that with mindfulness, so to speak, and see what I actually need right now, or what’s holding me back from something, or similar. And through this reflection, or the time I take for it, to reflect, to go into self-observation, through mindfulness about what I need right now, or what the situation requires right now, to handle it accordingly, appropriately, based on what analysis and reflection I get out of it. And that can be one direction in one situation and a completely different direction in another. And whatever the individual decision is, that’s ultimately the right one for the individual in that situation, and that’s what it’s ultimately about. And before we move into the closing round, I’d like to briefly come back to a comment that came up in the chat too, please: “With book recommendations, support German bookshops instead of Amazon and making Jeff richer.” I can understand the intention behind that. Here too, for me, there’s no right or wrong. Both a link is included and the title. Just decide for yourselves where you want to order, whether you want to use the Amazon link or look for the title yourselves at a bookshop. And here too, from my point of view, there’s no right or wrong — it’s again, on the one hand, an individual decision, and on the other hand, I’m also grateful to Jeff and Amazon for existing, because they’ve also made competition possible, or opened up options we didn’t have before with the “German shops.” At the same time it definitely has its downside too, and that’s why I find the objection that came up here, of course, valid too — that it has its negative sides, or its shadow sides. That’s why we’re always free to consciously make our own individual decisions again and again. And with that, let’s move into the closing round for today, so we can also announce the room for tomorrow. Layla, Sonja — what were your highlights, or what would you like to underline from today?

I’d like to end with Bertolt Brecht. The Good Person of Szechwan is one of my favorite books, and there he said, we stand ourselves disappointed and watch, troubled, as the curtain falls and all questions remain open. That’s not quite how I feel today — I actually have an appointment coming up shortly, I need to hurry now. So you could call that a crisis, but I’m a creative person, and I’m a creative person, replace that with though for me. And so I’m actually looking forward to the appointment, and I’ve realized for myself that habits are a beautiful thing, creativity is a beautiful thing, and even a crisis can have advantages, even if I know it as something negative. That’s really the important thing. Negative connotations happen in the brain. That’s my insight from the room. Thank you.

Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Sonja.

Yes, it was a wonderful round, I really enjoyed it, and I of course also enjoyed that there was a bit of neuroscience input too — that’s my comfort zone, no crisis at all, quite the opposite. So I’m happy I had a lot of opportunity today to contribute these impulses too. And on the topic of light, I wanted to say too — where there’s a lot of light, there’s also a lot of shadow. That’s always part of it, like with the Amazon example. Wonderful room, thank you so much.

Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. So, dear all, I found today really enriching too, I loved that we could look at things again from different perspectives, and everyone decides for themselves which insights they take with them, and what we want to work on accordingly, so to speak, if we’re picking anything up to keep working on. Tomorrow we’ll definitely continue with the daily topic of inspiration and insight — what role does inspiration play in gaining insight is the question we want to dedicate ourselves to. So really looking into aspects like impulses and things like that, and seeing what possibilities there are. We’ll surely have a lot of examples we can bring in there too — how is it for us personally? On the one hand that helps us reflect and sort our thoughts, and become more aware of it — what are our sources of inspiration? And on the other hand, to look at how that actually helps us gain insight. And then, the day after tomorrow, I’d like to announce this here too, we have an expert talk with Jennifer Pickhan. I’m really looking forward to that too, the former co-host and co-initiator of the Deep Talk. So we want to talk about mastering business recommendations. Here too we’ll build a bridge to the aspect of insight and gaining insight accordingly. I’m already looking forward to it, so save the date for Thursday morning at 8am as well. And yes, let’s see how the rooms keep developing. I think it’s great fun, and there are so many, many facets involved. And toward the end, so to speak, once we’ve gotten that far, we’ll also look at bringing it all back together, bundling it, and abstracting it back up, to make a certain synthesis for ourselves on the overarching theme of insight and gaining insight. With that, I wish you a wonderful day, whatever you have planned, and I’m looking forward to tomorrow morning at 8am, here again in the Deep Talk. Until then, ciao!