#833 Insight & Motivation

Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: What influence does motivation have on gaining insight? That’s the question we explore in Room #833 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme of “Insight (and gaining it).” Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…

Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.

A wonderful good morning to you all. Today we’re talking about the topic of insight and motivation. What influence does motivation have on gaining insight? And I’m really curious about this. Yesterday we touched on a few aspects that we said we could pick back up to get into today’s topic. Yesterday, terms like euphoria and emotions playing a role were floating around the room. And when we looked at whether we learn from mistakes — our own and other people’s — a lot of different aspects came together that we can spin further in various directions here. Among other things, that touched on this context of emotions, and also on the fact that when other people tell us about their own mistakes, we don’t necessarily always take that in, adapt it, and apply it ourselves — which led into the point that many mistakes get made that are actually quite unnecessary, because in the internet age, with networking working so differently than it used to, we get so much information out of other people’s life experience too, statistics, research, and so on. And yet there are certain things, or many things, where we perhaps even prefer to have the experience ourselves, possibly assuming that if we do it, it might turn out differently anyway, or whatever’s behind that approach. And whether that isn’t actually a good thing — because I brought up the dissertation example again yesterday at the close of the room, looking back, I don’t know if I would actually have done it. I suspect I still would have, though. And there have been repeated conversations about this with someone in my close circle who also did a doctorate. And she’s absolutely certain: I would do it again, even if I’d known, even if I’d been warned about it beforehand or something like that. Or, of course, there were also people around me who had already pointed out that it wouldn’t be easy. And I went into it anyway. And there were a lot of ups and downs, as there are in many other contexts too — maybe we encounter things we didn’t expect, or with an intensity we didn’t expect, emotionally too. And maybe it even serves as a kind of protective function. Maybe it’s actually a good thing that, in one situation or another, we simply don’t know exactly and can’t assess what’s coming toward us, and that we don’t necessarily let ourselves be held back by information or warnings from outside. What do you all think about that? I’m really curious, and maybe we can use that as a bridge into today’s topic of insight and motivation. As every morning, you’re warmly invited to join in and share your thoughts. What experiences have you had with this? What aspects come to mind for you? So please feel free to raise your hand and join in. Just a quick reminder that the room is being recorded. By joining, you’re agreeing that it’s being recorded and also published. Beyond that, we have three small room rules. One is a profile photo where you’re clearly recognizable. The second is your first and last name, and the third is at least one sentence in your bio, just so we can check whether contributions are genuine or possibly trolls. That distinction usually works quite well. Anyone who, for whatever reason, doesn’t want to do that can of course use the chat as usual, post questions there or share experiences, so that we can pick up on that and incorporate it into the discussion. And with that, I’m curious — let me unmute for a moment and see who wants to join first this morning. A wonderful good morning to you, dear Marc.

Yes, good morning, lovely to be back with you all. Insight and motivation. I’ve noticed that motivation gets a huge boost for me when things get really bad. When I think, this can’t go on — and that reminds me of the beginning of 2020, when unfortunately we had the whole Covid situation. For the first two or three days I thought, great — you can imagine, if you’re in the promotional products business, Covid, and then in March it became clear that trade fairs weren’t happening anymore, that people weren’t meeting each other anymore. And I sat there in my office and said, the last thing anyone needs right now is promotional products. And that was hugely motivating for me. Of course I didn’t like it, but in your head, so many synapses and nerves get fired up that you’re reading the news, immediately calling other companies, asking how are you handling this, how do you assess the situation, how are you dealing with it, what does it mean for you — and then at some point the insight came to me, not immediately of course, but you engage with certain topics and then it dawned on me that people need masks, and masks are made from fabric, and fabric — that’s exactly the world I move in, so that’s how we arrived at it. It was then clear that I wouldn’t be selling baseball caps that year, because nobody needed them, since people weren’t going to trade fairs. But they needed masks. Back then, we still didn’t have much knowledge about this — it wasn’t yet known that what actually protects us is the FFP2 mask. Back then it was simply about people tying something in front of their face. So we said, okay, if people are tying a cloth in front of their face, I can make those cloths. And we managed to do that. We sat down together and said, then we have to sell these cloths. And for a brief moment we even considered whether to jump on that train with FFP2 masks too. But once you actually engage with the topic, there are so, so many things tied up in it — pharmacies can’t buy from just anyone, and so on and so on. You’d have to engage with entirely new markets. But what I want to say with this is, when a crisis comes at us, or comes at me, I feel like a founder starting from scratch again, and you have absolutely no time to bury your head in the sand and complain or say, what do I do now, oh no, oh no. Instead, your mind basically runs at full speed, and you’re busy 24 hours a day, as long as you’re awake, trying to find a solution for your company. And then what happens is something we’ve talked about here often — when we go for a walk, or give ourselves the space to just let our thoughts wander, suddenly ideas come to us that were actually already there but that we’d never picked up on before, and that’s how we arrive at new solutions. And the main insight from this whole situation is that there’s no situation I need to be afraid of. Very often I don’t know the answer to the solution yet, but I know it’ll come to me eventually, and then I’ll take the right steps.

Wonderful, thank you so much. A nice example, and it also makes clear that an influence from outside — something we often have no direct way of shaping ourselves — can trigger certain thought processes, and those then bring motivation through analyzing or weighing up the situation, and that in turn sets things in motion. So we have, to some extent — we’ve said before that change is usually initiated from two backgrounds. Either there’s suffering on one side, and maybe there’s also worry playing a role there, or on the other hand there can be joy, moving toward something — so moving away from something or moving toward something plays an important role in getting motivation going, getting movement going, and a motive is ultimately the movement itself. And the question is whether that motivation ultimately also has an influence on gaining insight. Is it always connected somehow, or does it promote the gaining of insight in that sense? Do I become more open through it, or do you have any ideas about that — what’s the relationship between motivation and insight? Do I need motivation, or do I need more motivation, to be able to generate more insight? And at the same time, looking at aspects like — if we look again at this moving-away-from and moving-toward — have personal passions, for example, led to your biggest insights, or something similar? So here too, maybe looking at the private sphere as well, to bring in further ideas.

I was just thinking about that while you were talking — of course I was listening too, but I want to bring a new word into play: gaining energy. No matter what happens, that’s simply my philosophy. I always keep my distance from groups of people who just complain. Who say, oh, how terrible, how terrible, and my god, what’s happening now. And we’re not going to trade fairs either. I avoid those conversations, because they don’t get me anywhere. The facts are already on the table. I don’t need to hear things I already know. What I’ve noticed is that I gain an enormous amount of new insight when I talk to people who are building something, who are rolling up their sleeves, who say, it’ll work out. And we’ve got an idea. And if we can’t go to trade fairs, we’ll send something by post. Then I say, great idea, thank you. And that’s so inspiring. And through that positive energy, through the doing — through what other people actually do, regardless of whether it leads to a result or not — that doing creates energy. And that energy triggers something in me, so that through energy, through this doing, through this positive force from others, I also gain new insights. But that doesn’t work if I focus on — I always think people split into exactly two groups. One group says everything is terrible, my partner left me, it’s awful, I don’t know what to do, I want to end it all, terrible, terrible. And the others look forward, right? And looking forward doesn’t mean singing and dancing and being happy and saying, come on now, but simply looking for ways to work around obstacles in processes.

Yes, I think that’s a fascinating point you’re raising. And I also remember the very beginning of the Covid period, and I’d like to bring in an example. I can also move — so to speak — in an empty way. Meaning, euphoria or a lot of movement doesn’t necessarily mean — it can be that I eventually generate some insight from it, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it always produces positive results. I remember, hold on — I remember that right at the beginning of the Covid period, once that first phase of realization hit, a lot of people said, now we all have to pool all our energy and put it into sales and so on. Meaning all team members should basically only do sales, in a situation where the market didn’t necessarily want to buy anything anymore, but was in a state of shock instead — you can call for everyone to drop everything and only do sales, but whether that then — that’s what I mean by moving in an empty way — whether it has any effect at all, and whether this motivation to do more, to tackle something euphorically, to get stuck in, necessarily leads to a positive result. Those people probably also gained that insight later, looking back, that it didn’t achieve much, and that other activities might have been much more important at that point than making that decision out of what I’ll call panic-driven courage, just doing more of the same, which didn’t help at all. And that’s fascinating too — that motivation doesn’t necessarily always mean positive results come out of it. So this is connected to a lot of other components too, and it’s very context-dependent. Sabine, a wonderful good morning to you. What do you think about the topic?

A wonderful good morning. Yes, I’d like to pick up a bit on what Marc said. For me it wasn’t Covid, it was basically the rising interest rates last year, and from September to December, frankly speaking, not much was happening in the real estate market at all. I kept going, and I went back into doing insurance, because insurance was still moving, even though I’d actually decided beforehand, you’re not doing insurance anymore, you don’t want that anymore — but I got pulled back into it, until I said, hang on, this can’t be right, that you draw up a strategy and then throw the whole thing overboard, stick to what you know. But I also saw that a lot of people reacted — a lot of brokers have already disappeared from the market. There are financing people who went back to a bank, because they said, better to have secure money than not know how things will continue. That’s a bit of a shame, but I think it’s also a necessary market correction. And last week I met with an insurance broker I already cooperate with a bit, and I said, look, you’re getting my entire insurance business now. I don’t want it. I want to focus on my own side again, and that’s going well, and we hear it every day in the press — we need housing, so financing will become scarce too. Not everyone will be able to get financing. I feel better again now.

Yes, you said something really fascinating to close with — I feel better again now. And actually, while you were giving that example, I was thinking again about the authors’ breakfast with Steffi Zerl on Sunday. And that was ultimately also about personal branding — this idea that knowing who I am and what I want is a basic prerequisite for being a personal brand, for me myself being the personal brand, and that if I’m authentic, many things can be derived from that as a consequence. And if I instead just try to chase after something on the market, present myself as something other than what I am, or imitate something I’m not — whether that’s the social media channels I use or anything else — simply because certain numbers, data, or facts suggest something, but I have to twist myself out of shape for it, that can’t go well, in connection with results and whatever measure of success I might be aiming for. And that’s why I find this “and it feels good again” so fascinating. So the question is, what does all of this have to do with motivation and gaining insight from your point of view? Or, Marc, feel free to pick up on these two examples again in relation to today’s room topic, and see if you have some initial explanations for yourselves. How does that connect with motivation and insight, or gaining insight?

Yes, Sabine, gladly. I think that’s the driver of everything, because if you get up in the morning and already say, well, today won’t amount to anything either, then my hope is that nothing will come of it, and you just drift along and don’t roll up your sleeves and say, now more than ever. At some point I said, right, I’m just going to go visit all the brokers — well, not all of them, but a few. And you noticed exactly the same thing. You didn’t necessarily know from the phone or from their website what kind of brokers they were, because brokers aren’t necessarily the IT geniuses who present themselves brilliantly online. And you’d go into the conversation and within two or three minutes you’d know, okay, you could walk back out of this one. You’re not going to win any prizes here, because this person doesn’t even want it themselves. So those conversations reflected exactly what the market was saying. Well, it’s all difficult, my employee already left me, I don’t even know if I should keep going — those kinds of conversations. And then I think, well, okay, that tells me something, you don’t need to stick around here. Of course I didn’t cut it off right there, but I withdrew from it fairly quickly. Whereas with others — one guy opens his laptop and says, look, here’s the platform I’ve got, here’s where I stand. And you’re immediately a bit overwhelmed and think, hey, stick with this one, he’s good, you can work with him. So I think attitude plays a huge role there. And I had the same experience yesterday. We had a workshop within our company yesterday, and we had a coach from a Volksbank talking about target groups. And I think, because of everything I’ve already done for myself, I’m a step further along than a lot of the people who were there, because a lot of them were sitting there saying, well, someone needs to do something about this. Sort of like, I’ll just stay sitting in my office and eventually someone will come, open the door, and be my customer. But that’s not how the world works anymore today.

Oh, that’s lovely, thank you so much. And interestingly, something just came to mind — just a few days ago someone actually brought this up in a conversation. Wow, what a story on your website, the personal story about you. On the website there’s a section about the background, so to speak, why I do what I do. And I found that really fascinating. The spark seemed to have really jumped across at that point — that was at least the feedback I got — that it felt completely understandable, that driving force, this “what is it that moves me to be active in this sector and to walk this path, what’s the mission behind it.” And then we talked briefly about that driving force. And I mentioned that in the context of some training program, this aspect actually came up too — you’d have the option, so to speak, to dissolve certain things. And that’s exactly what came up, and I very consciously, once I recognized that,

said, no, I’m not going to dissolve that, because that’s my engine. If I dissolve my engine, I no longer have any driving force. That was my concern at that point, and I said, quite consciously, even though I know that at certain points it was really, really painful — that is exactly what I draw this strength from, to keep walking exactly this path, and no matter what hurdles come up, to keep going. So this driving force too — and we’ve established that this can come from negative experiences, it can arise out of suffering and so on, but it doesn’t have to be evaluated negatively, so to speak — it can unfold an incredible power that gets me moving, and no matter what headwind is blowing at that point, to keep going anyway. Marc, did you want to add anything else?

No, I’m just listening, listening very intently. Thank you.

Yes, and then we also had this aspect with us just now — this outside influence, this environment also plays a role, in the sense that you brought up, when someone, for example, isn’t necessarily looking for solutions or always sees everything negatively, so to speak. We don’t just encounter that in an unfamiliar environment where we can then disengage, kindly but firmly, so to speak — we often encounter it in our circle of friends or in our family or wherever. That means, regardless of whether there’s suffering involved or not, we might just have ideas that we ourselves find cool, that we want to build on, want to keep pursuing. And then it’s interesting to see the reactions from outside too. And how do you best handle that? What role does motivation play here? And what insights can be generated, or not? What do you want to add to that, Marc?

Sure, gladly. I’m just looking at Oliver down there, and an idea, or rather an insight, occurred to me — we all use social networks. And what bothers me — you’ve mentioned this before — is that I’m hardly going to add any more contacts on LinkedIn this year, because people aren’t really interested in the person, but because associations want to sell their services or whatever. And yet I’ve come to realize that in crisis situations our network is extremely important. Extremely important, not to generate new business, but simply to get access to approaches to solutions. I know that Oliver does something with banks. And if I had a financing problem, or my company was expanding and I was planning five times the revenue and couldn’t get a bank on board, then I’d know I’d message Oliver and say, listen, I heard you do something with banks, I don’t know exactly what you do, but I don’t know that industry at all — can you help me, or can you give me a tip? And it’s exactly those tips, when you talk to people who work in other industries — whether it’s about a real estate search, or insurance, or some other problem — that you get so many valuable tips, which don’t necessarily lead to me generating business, but which help me find new approaches to solutions, find new possibilities, and that’s networking for me. And this idea of networking, as I’m experiencing it right now on all networks — not just on LinkedIn — that people offer their services unsolicited, without even bothering to pick up the phone, do we need this and so on and so on. So for me, that’s not really about networking — and it’s not that most of these people are doing anything wrong, they’re just entrepreneurs moving in these networks, and about 95 percent of them are trying to generate their own business rather than build a network to develop further.

Thank you so much. And Sonja has also joined us. A wonderful good morning, dear Sonja. What do you think about this?

Yes, a wonderful good morning. I find this discussion really stimulating, and of course I’m thinking a lot about the topic of insight and motivation myself right now too, because I’m in a phase of upheaval, both privately and, forced by that, professionally as well, and I can no longer act from within a comfort zone the way I used to, which is pushing me strongly to rethink things on the business side. And, just like Marc said, I’m currently reaching out to networks and looking at which network actually suits me, which people, which attitudes suit me. And for myself personally I have the guiding principle that I want to live and work in love and connectedness. In everyday life, in private life, that’s one thing. But in a professional context I clearly notice that there are simply people who can’t do much with that. And there are others who jump right on it. And those are the ones who are networking with me right now, helping me, working out shared concepts together. And that’s a really, really valuable insight for me — that this process of self-discovery was very helpful in drawing exactly the right people into my business environment, people who fit me, who are on a similar wavelength, who want to move ideas forward, who fit exactly with my life vision, who aren’t primarily after money and sales, but who put purpose, intention, the idea that it should come from the heart, first — and earn money that way, but with the focus on something else. I find that a really, really valuable and also healing insight right now. And without the whole crisis situation, I wouldn’t have set out on this path at all. I wouldn’t have dared to position myself, to polarize, and to stand by it, because the market in general gives me the feeling that you don’t do that, that’s not the approach that’s welcome. But when I dive into these contacts now, I get in touch with completely different people, people who want exactly that, and it makes me come alive. The coaching sessions I have right now are so incredibly fulfilling, and it feels so easy, because it’s exactly what suits me. And that’s a huge insight — that I’m allowed to have the courage to really live what suits me, and not what suits the market. And then exactly the segment of the market that resonates with me will feel addressed. And yes, that’s just a wonderful connection between insight and motivation for me, because it motivates me to keep going too. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Marc, Sabine, would you like to add anything here too?

Yes, something came to mind, Sonja, from what you just said. I made a mental note — motivation also means motor, movement, and energy. And we don’t like to use more energy than necessary. Yasemin has said that in her room before too, because our brain is actually content when everything stays the way it is. Because energy also means exertion. And that’s exactly where I notice that when we have to exert ourselves — not because we’ve decided we really want to do this now, but because something from outside forces us into that movement, into more movement than would otherwise be the case — I also notice that alongside that movement, energy gets released, and with that released energy come new insights. And that’s the reason I stay away from people who don’t move in a crisis situation, and moving means moving toward something. Whether I’ll actually reach that goal, as Yasemin mentioned earlier, isn’t really the point. It’s not about whether it’s certain that this movement will get me to the goal. But it’s better to do something and have the feeling that you’re not a victim, than to do nothing and just meet up at your favorite bar somewhere and complain, oh man, everything’s so terrible. I’d rather move, even if the insight comes that I moved in the wrong direction.

Thank you so much. I’m not sure whether Sabine would like to add to that too.

Yes, gladly. What Sonja just said, I can completely relate to. I think it’s great that things have developed that way for me too. And of course, for me right now, especially in coaching, when I’m being coached, I feel like I need someone over there who speaks my language. We’re on the same level, and so on. Just now a piece of me came to mind, and that was an insight for me too. I always have a bit of a problem with the fact that — I think — I engage very passionately with clients, and sometimes I’m actually annoyed myself when they end up choosing something else, for reasons I can’t quite understand, because I felt I’d presented the better financing option. Recently it happened that I have an Indian client, an expat, I’ve been supporting him for two years, and we must have looked at four or five properties together, always over video and so on. I think we actually had a good rapport. He found one, and he wanted to do a renovation as well, and I said, we can handle that, we’ll do it. But then he got panicky, because he’d lost out on properties so many times before, so he and his wife went to a second bank as well. And that second bank was a day faster than mine, and he signed with them. But they didn’t include financing for the renovation. Then I said, that’s a shame, well, he’d have to sell gold in India then. But I said, that’s not what he wants. And then I talked to him for a good half hour, and I really went to the limit for myself there, and I said, you know, you could sign today and cancel again tomorrow, that’s legally possible. It’s not exactly the polite thing to do, but they’re putting you under pressure — he’d been told he had to sign by 8am the next morning or the financing would fall through. So there was pressure on his side too. Then he said, no, canceling isn’t really his thing, that’s not his culture. So I said, but honestly, we’ve been doing this for two years now, you call me at any time of day — well, not at night, but pretty much. And then he said, let me talk to my wife, I’ll call you back, and he called back and said, we’ll cancel, we’ll go with your bank. And he called me a day later and said he wanted to thank me for not giving up, because it really was the better financing, and in the meantime he’s already referred two clients to me. And that really was an insight for me — normally I don’t turn my inner feelings outward in a conversation like that, but I just said to him, have you thought about how this affects me, that I’ve been working with you passionately for two years and then get pushed aside? And I think that was the turning point. And that was an insight for me — that maybe even in a dry, boring business like mortgage financing, you should sometimes let your feelings show on the outside.

Wonderful, thank you so much. And that also fits with what I’d like to pick up on — two aspects you both raised. One is networking, which is another aspect I’d like to bring in, also with a question, because networking has been described here in a very positive way. I’m fundamentally of the opinion that networks play a very important, elemental role too. At the same time, I also observe a lot of networking, or supposed networking, where meetings get organized and so on, and people have coffee together, so to speak, and ultimately nothing happens at all, except that maybe you’ve had a conversation you wouldn’t otherwise have had. That’s one thing, maybe we can look at it from that perspective too. And the second is connected to what you told us, Sabine, about staying on it — something I’d also like to bring in — in many situations we make interpretations that might not even be accurate, because we simply don’t know the underlying motives or motivation of others in the background at all. And as long as it isn’t talked about, or reinterpreted in some way, a lot of misinterpretation can happen, because we’re only looking at things from our own self-constructed version of reality. And especially regarding what Sonja just said, with the coaches and so on, what comes to mind is — by now it’s actually reached a point, and I could actually be happy about this, but it’s become so pronounced that in many places it just isn’t responded to anymore, purely for lack of time. While other companies complain, for example, that they can’t find people, can’t find skilled workers, we — I — get a massive number of applications, even though we haven’t even posted a job opening or anything like that. And that’s really increased a lot recently, and at some point it led to me actually saying, regarding these unsolicited applications, well, it’s different when it’s a process where someone applies because a position has been advertised. But these unsolicited applications — we’d really have to go so far as to say we’d almost need to hire someone whose job it is to respond to these inquiries. And that’s another expression of this whole topic of weighing things up, how do I deal with it and so on. And there can be all sorts of different motives in the background as to why, for example, no response is given, or something similar, and the interpretations we make are only based on what we perceive in front of the curtain, so to speak, and not on the insights behind the scenes. And I’m curious about these two aspects — what do you think? Do you have any ideas, thoughts, impulses that come up that you’d like to pick up on and take a position on, or draw a connection to? Marc, Sabine, Sonja, what do you think?

Sonja first, then Marc, gladly.

Well, first of all, I’m happy for you that you’re attracting people without even posting job openings, and that they’re applying to you, because that’s already wonderful feedback about how you’re perceived from the outside, about what people find attractive and want to be part of your orbit, want to be associated with you. That’s a really lovely thing in itself. And that’s also exactly what I wanted to pick up on from Sabine — namely, that I personally find it very conducive when we bring emotions and personal things into our business. Because in my own situation, for example, I’ve noticed that when I bring in private and personal things, people open up and even try to invent projects just to help support me in my situation. That wouldn’t happen if I didn’t communicate all those personal things, the vulnerabilities, the supposed weaknesses. That has to do with the person too — people just feel connected to me and therefore want to help me. And that only happens if you show yourself, and if people like that, and if they see some kind of value in it for themselves in some form, even if that value just means, hey, there’s someone who thinks similarly to me, and that feels good to me. So I’d always advocate for revealing personal and vulnerable things in business, even though throughout my entire earlier life as an employee I was told exactly the opposite by everyone. My experience with it has simply been super positive, and I’ll keep doing it that way. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Something comes to mind that I’d like to share with you — on my last trip, referring back to Sabine, on my last trip I picked up a book again, by Jim Holden, called “Power Base Selling: Secrets of an Ivy League Street Fighter.” And this book is painful to read as a salesperson, because it’s exactly about what Sabine just told us. When I don’t win a deal, we often say, the other guy had better prices, the quality was maybe better, they had the best product and so on. But the real reason I didn’t sell something lies with me. And the real reason I didn’t sell anything is that I don’t know the real reason the other person didn’t buy from me. And I can only find that out through communication. And there can be so many reasons, like what Sabine just told us. There can be reasons why someone doesn’t want to do business with women, because they come from a different cultural background. There can be reasons why someone has learned to be reliable, that you don’t cancel contracts, because it’s uncomfortable for people to say, actually I don’t want to do business with you after all, even if that person is convinced the deal is wrong for them. And the insight I gained from that again is that not making a sale isn’t down to my competitors or bad luck — if I don’t sell to a customer, the only reason I didn’t manage it is that I don’t know all the reasons why they’re not buying from me. And that doesn’t mean that if I did know the reason, I’d still make the deal, because sometimes it just doesn’t fit. But often what people say isn’t what they mean, and isn’t the actual reason we don’t come together.

Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. Sabine, would you like to add to that too?

Yes, I agree with Marc a lot there — it’s often down to us, and I have to say I’ve changed a bit here too. I used to often think, well, now I’m offended, but that doesn’t change anything for me or for the other person. They’re not going to come back to me because of that. So now I always wish them all the best and see whether we might still stay in touch. They might have a second property too, because often, and they reflect this back, the advice was great, it’s just this or that they preferred about the other option, or something, and then I just have to accept that for myself. But what I of course — Marc, you just read another great book, and there are a lot of great books — but there’s also always a bit of a fine line to high-pressure selling, and I think, Marc, you even said something like this last time, that online marketing and so on is pretty bad right now, and on the phone I often get people who aren’t really trying to be personal anymore, they’re just trying to close the deal and tell you all sorts of things. And I catch myself quite often now just cutting in and saying, thanks for the call, I’ve got other things to do, and hanging up. And of course you have to find that line for yourself too.

Wonderful, thank you so much, and that line you just mentioned is a really, really important factor that keeps coming up in many contexts. Where is the line, so to speak, whether it’s about networking, about job applications, about “let me quickly help with that,” or anything else. So these are always areas of tension we move within ourselves too. And you described it so nicely just now — at first I chose to be offended, so to speak, but that doesn’t get me anywhere, so let it go. And then maybe they come back a second time, at a later point, with another property inquiry, or a financing inquiry. And also, and you’ll probably know these people too, Sabine, from experience, there are people who come back a second, third, or fourth time, and who basically still keep choosing other providers on the market, in the past or in the present. And here too, whether it’s a favor, whether it’s about financing topics where support is being given, whether it’s a service that’s actually taken up or not — here too, you know this, we’ve had other rooms where we’ve discussed these topics — often it’s not necessarily just customers or potential customers, but especially family members and so on, where it’s about a small favor, but that small favor usually takes up more time than it might seem from the outside. And weighing that up again and again — what’s possible, what’s not possible, how far do I go, where’s the line, so to speak — requires ongoing reflection, and against the background of that reflection, conscious decisions get made. Those can shift or change over time too. But it’s not simply one direction or the other per se, but always a renewed weighing-up, and the personal situation you might find yourself in, the contexts out of which it all happens, and so on, also play a role here in relation to motivation and insight. I’m curious what you think about that. Marc, Sabine, Sonja, would you like to add to that?

I just want to say something quick to Sabine. Sabine, you described that so well just now, with the high-pressure selling. I brought back a sticker from Amsterdam last year, from the Van Gogh Museum, that hangs in my office, and it says “Be the reason someone smiles today.” And I think that’s exactly the difficulty — on one hand, the difficulty is finding out the reason someone doesn’t buy. But my real intention is to let every person leave a conversation, whether it’s a private discussion or a professional context, without having to justify themselves. Because only if that person felt comfortable with me can I call again later and say, hey, happy birthday, merry Christmas. A customer should never have to justify to me why they didn’t buy. I congratulate them on their decision. I want my customer to buy good products, ideally from me, of course. If they buy them elsewhere, I’m still happy for them, and I wait for a new chance. And getting that fine balance right, figuring out what I can do — because of course I’d love to get the deal — without the other person having to justify themselves, so that they feel comfortable and pick up the phone next time when they see my number, that’s really the top discipline for me in dealing with people.

Yes, I think that’s a really important aspect you’re raising, and from my perspective it applies not only to customer relationships but also in the context of networking, in collaboration, with contacts or freelancers we work with and so on — so thinking about it in different directions here too. Was there another comment on this? I’m not sure if I might have missed one. Yes, Sonja, go ahead.

Yes, I just wanted to reinforce that I find what Marc shared really worth supporting — how important it is, and you reinforced this too, that you leave the other person with a good feeling, that they don’t get the impression, wow, I was really put under pressure there and that felt uncomfortable, but instead that the other person gets the feeling, that was honest, that was authentic, they really had an interest in improving and understanding my situation. And that’s what makes for both good networking and good business. And sometimes offers just don’t fit together, and sometimes a network combination doesn’t work for one particular thing, but it still fits for another possible thing. And if you’ve treated each other well, then you know, hey, back then on that particular point, I didn’t quite bite, it didn’t fit, but maybe I could reach out to person XY again for this new topic I’m thinking about now. And that only happens if we leave good feelings in the interaction, and people feel inspired and comfortable, richer than before — and that’s my aim too, both in networking and in every business contact, and I’ve experienced it often, that maybe I didn’t get one particular job, but the people worked with someone else first and then came back to me later, and because of that I have far more long-term clients who stay with me for years and who, in between, just try something else for price reasons, only to realize that with Sonja it’s somehow more reliable, and she really means it. And that’s a really lovely resonance, and for me it’s the confirmation that I’ll keep handling it this way, and that I’m doing well with it, especially with myself. Thank you.

Wonderful, thank you so much. Yes, and I saw we have another question in the chat from Ismail that I’d like to bring up too, as another point. He’s thinking about the idea that motivation is like energy — can motivation be steered so as not to lose it? Is motivation “on” or “off,” or is there no middle ground for motivation? I’m really curious what you think about that. What’s your take? Can motivation, so to speak, be steered? What experiences have you had with that, or where can you perhaps connect it to something scientific, or anything else? And what are your thoughts on it? Is it like a switch that gets turned on or off, flipped, so to speak, or can you consciously steer it? What do you do for your own motivation? Marc, Sabine, Sonja, who’d like to go?

I’d come back to our happiness expert here, who’s helped me a lot with this. Yes, I think it can be steered, because motivation has to do with feelings, has to do with energy. And for me it starts with not naming the motivation itself. Motivation is energy, and I get good energy when I can generally take joy in small things. Not the big deal that’s coming in, not the new car, not the new house, but simply a delicious coffee, the sun shining, or when it rains I’m happy that the plants outside are finally getting water again. And if you go through life that way, if you can draw energy and joy from very, very small everyday things, then I think joy is a huge building block for even being able to access motivation at all. Because only when I’m happy, only when I’m in a good mood, do I also find approaches to solutions. And we all notice this — when we’re grieving, that’s a good example — when we’re grieving and sad, the brain is so occupied with grief that no solutions come to mind, and everything goes downhill, and we have moments where we can’t manage anything. So yes, motivation can be steered.

Wonderful, thank you, Sabine. Sonja, your thoughts on this, go ahead.

I’d pick up on the other part of the question, namely whether motivation is like energy and therefore doesn’t get lost, just converted. My thought and also my experience with this is, when I’m in a motivational surge, I first have a whole lot of power and I’m simply willing to put that power into action. There are situations where, when I have this kind of joy-and-motivation surge, I just start calling other people and telling them about it. Then I direct that energy into private conversations, or business-private, which is often mixed for me. And then the motivational energy fizzles out, or gets lost for the actual idea I had in mind, because I’ve put that energy into those conversations instead. And if I really want that motivational energy to flow into a project, then I have to — and this is my insight — avoid telling other people all about it first, and instead immediately put that energy into concept ideas, research, or anything that’s actually beneficial for the project, so that it flows into the channels that really nourish and advance my projects. So that’s my insight about handling motivation, and yes, it’s like energy — it doesn’t get lost, just converted, and we can steer which channels we let that energy flow into.

Wonderful, thank you so much. Sabine, would you like to add anything else?

Doesn’t seem to be the case. Okay, well basically — I couldn’t find the button. I’ll go ahead and give my closing word now too, since I have to be at a meeting at 9. Well, now I’ve forgotten the answer, I guess I’m getting older today too. No, but let me just give my closing word. Really wonderful session again today, Yasemin, it’s very stimulating for me too, and I have to say, it helps me, like in rooms such as yesterday, where we had people live, some of them, where I say, hey, could you please get moving — where I just say, no, what Marc said earlier, it’s a good thing I don’t share an office with certain people, because I think I’d probably end up sitting there thinking, well, maybe a customer will come in, maybe not. So the insight for me is, I think, that this really is the trigger, the motivation to keep moving forward. Have a lovely day.

Wonderful, thank you so much to you too. And yes, the question is, I think, not really whether motivation can be steered at all — there’s definitely the possibility. Now we can also connect this back to different rooms we’ve had before, just as a reminder. It’s important that we go through this repetition every now and then, so to speak, to let our synapses flood through it again and bring it back into memory. For one, we once had a room where we talked about this having a lot to do with different hormones in the background, these hormone cocktails, as Sonja liked to call them. There are various hormones involved, and we already have influence over that from the start — for example over hormones connected with things like anticipation and so on, which means we can contribute, through diet, exercise, movement, whatever, to certain hormones being released. So that’s already one point of control. The other, of course, is engaging with the topic itself — what actually causes motivation and things like that? What has an influence? There’s a lot of different research findings that can be drawn on here. Things like whether an expectation is met or not, whether there’s a reward. You can, so to speak, design your own reward systems to increase anticipation for something, or increase its attractiveness, or similar. So we already have the possibility of doing certain things here. It’s just that the topic is relatively complex. I can say in one sentence that it can be steered, but there are so many different factors coming together here that it’s important to look more closely. Let’s take a business context as an example, you all know this — there’s always more money, or more fruit baskets, or more of something. But that doesn’t really work properly. And the reason it doesn’t work is that people are constructed in a somewhat complicated way. If the expectation becomes that there are fruit baskets, and then there are fruit baskets every day, and then suddenly there aren’t anymore, the expectation is no longer met. But even a met expectation, precisely because it’s already become an expectation, no longer has a motivational effect, because it becomes taken for granted. So there’s a habituation effect here too. And these are all factors that, in motivation research, motivation psychology, whichever direction we look at it from, have an important impact on whether the levers we try to pull, so to speak, actually work or not. That’s why surprise effects, for example, play a role, and so on — knowing the various factors you can use for yourself, while also making sure it doesn’t become a habituation effect, because once habituation sets in, steering becomes difficult again, because then it’s taken for granted, and in that taken-for-granted state, or in habit, that motivational boost, so to speak, is no longer there, or no longer present to the same degree as when there’s a surprise effect, when commitment is created and honored, and so on. So it’s about taking these factors into account too. Would you like to add anything else before we move into the closing round, Sonja?

Gladly. I wanted to add a small thing to what Sabine said, namely that she’s sometimes glad not to sit in an office with certain people, not to share an office with them. And that, I think, is exactly the beautiful thing about being self-employed — that you can choose for yourself which people you’re in contact with right now. And you can actively draw on those contacts when you need a particular kind of motivation. You know your people, and you know who would give you which kind of energy right now. And then I pick up the phone and call those people. And that always brings me the best colleagues I need for whatever situation I’m currently in. And that’s also a wonderful insight. And what’s important here is that this motivation also has to come from within myself first — to actually pick up the phone, and to think about who’s the right person right now. Thank you.

Wonderful, thank you so much. And with that, I’d like to move into our closing round for today, and invite you to answer this question: with what motivation did you come into the room today, and with what insight are you leaving it? Marc, Sonja.

That would have been exactly my closing word, dear Yasemin. I’m totally motivated today by the energy that’s built up in this room today. Through this lively, vibrant “you can do this, and that’s great” feeling. And I noticed — I was already motivated before, but now I’m doubly motivated. Thank you for this wonderful room, and a wonderful day to you all.

How lovely, wonderful, thank you so much, Sonja. I have to admit that my motivation at the start was more, I’ll just listen in, to hear the familiar voices. But then the conversations and topics stimulated me so much that my insight was, it’s simply important, when it gets interesting, to actually contribute. And that’s why I raised my hand. And I’m always so glad that you fill this room, offer it every morning. It’s just such a lovely constant. Thank you so much for that.

Yes, thank you so much in return. Wonderful. I find it really fascinating to hear that, and what kind of influence this has, or leaves behind, for you — motivation turning into double motivation, or listening turning into actually contributing. Those are all movements happening here too. That’s quite clear. I really love hearing that too. And I find it really fascinating, the examples and perspectives that came up again today. And I’m really looking forward to tomorrow, because tomorrow we’ll continue with insight and now what? Why insight alone isn’t enough — that means we’ll take an even deeper look at this aspect of the change process. What’s the initiator? How does change actually get set in motion, and so on? Insight is one side of it, but insight alone doesn’t necessarily mean I put anything into practice. I might have aha-moments or something similar, but what do I actually do with them, and what makes sure that I actually get into motion, or don’t? And that’s what we want to look at tomorrow. I’m really looking forward to it already, and I warmly invite you to join again tomorrow at 8am, when the Deep Talk doors open. With that, I wish you all the best, and hopefully see you tomorrow. Ciao!