Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: What relevance does a perspective shift actually have for gaining insight? That’s the question we explore in Room #838 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme of “Insight (and gaining it).” Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…
Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.
Today it’s about insight and perspective shift. So what relevance does a perspective shift actually have for gaining insight? On one hand, again, in both directions and the interplay between them, and then to look at something I’d also like to bring in at the start. We touched on this briefly on the side in one of the rooms before, and I find it really fascinating here too. We can really think outside the box here, because a perspective shift isn’t just putting on the other person’s glasses, so to speak, but definitely also aspects like traveling. Just from the fact that we have the possibility to travel to all kinds of countries and gather other cultural experiences, we potentially have far more chances to get into a perspective shift, simply by getting to know these cultures, than some people might actually be able to use for themselves. So, to really pick up on aspects we might not think of directly or per se, but a bit more roundabout. And then let me look, we also had a few things in the chat yesterday where I said I’d take them along and look into them again. So we had two comments yesterday on insight and decision. I want to at least read them out, and then we’ll see if anyone wants to pick up on them. If I look at this example with “don’t kill” and at the same time “supplying weapons,” and a lot of other grievances, isn’t it often because at a certain point things just don’t get thought through, question mark, in a certain sense, to think things through to the end — that was probably a typo, maybe autocorrected. And then toward the end of the room, my highlight was the insight for me that it’s precisely the freedom of science that generates insight. And thanks for the word “sinnlogisch” [logically sensible], new to me. Wonderful. Right, so we’ve brought that in again, and you can decide whether you want to pick that up, whether you want to connect at some point, or whether we really start completely fresh today with insight and perspective shift. So what relevance does perspective shift have for gaining insight? That’s what we want to talk about today, and as always, you’re warmly invited to join and step into the exchange. Just a quick note for anyone joining for the first time today, that the room is being recorded. If you speak up, you automatically agree that it’s not just recorded but also published accordingly. And yes, we have three small rules. One is a profile photo where you’re clearly recognizable, your first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. Anyone who, for whatever reason, doesn’t want to do that can of course also use the chat to bring in thoughts or questions. And I’ll try to take that into account over the course of the room, within the roughly 60 minutes, as long as it fits the topic and hasn’t already been answered. And with that, I’d like to bring in Layla, who’s already indicated she’d like to speak. A wonderful good morning, dear Layla. What do you say about the topic?
A wonderful good morning, dear Yasemin. Yes, that’s a great topic, because I love thinking outside the box, and perspective shift is always a good thing, being able to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. And, well, I don’t know if it’s like it was in the chat, because it was said you have to think things through to the end. And that made me think of an example of my own. It’s a bit like the Ten Commandments, when someone says, well, and how’s it with this? I always call that the “Muslim MOT test.” Do you drink, do you eat pork, do you have a boyfriend? That gets done a lot. Of course that exists with other religions too, but people tend to assume that with Islam, this kind of interpretation is front and center — the five pillars of Islam, though actually observing the five pillars is of course very important, but it being so foregrounded like that, that construct isn’t really accurate. There’s no such thing in that form. No one ever said, here are the five pillars of Islam. It’s just a construct. To get to the point, I think it’s true, it’s not thought through to the end. And with my example I mean, if someone says to me, well, how is it with this, what do you actually do? And I think, what do you mean? Yes, do you do that? Yes, but if you do one thing, you have to do the other too. And I think, well, but I have to start somewhere. I also can’t say, with the Ten Commandments, wait a minute, I’ve lied now, so I guess I could start stealing too. And while we’re at it, because I always think we have to start small. And that’s actually what I mean, that I think it’s not thought through to the end. He’s completely right about that. These conditions are lamentable, that we don’t do it that way, that we say, okay, we won’t sell the weapons, we won’t do this and that, and that has to be disclosed and thought through. But then to say, well, this whole construct doesn’t hold up — which wasn’t quite said that way, but that’s often done, and that’s what I meant with the Muslim MOT test — it’s always done like, yes, but then you practice this, yes, but then you’re not really one, or you don’t really have, and I think, huh, what now? You have to think things through to the end. And if you take the perspective shift now, Yasemin, you could say, from my perspective, I think I have to start with something, and I don’t have to give it all up completely. And, yes, that changes begin small. By the way, Yasemin, I watched that show you mentioned, on Netflix, with Barack Obama’s wife. Wonderful, really wonderful. I need to watch it again, but really wonderful. She also said you should start small.
Yes, absolutely, thank you so much. I’ll probably get to watch it another five times, because there were so many aspects in it, and I’m really forgetful, so I keep discovering new things whenever I listen to it again. Yes, perspective shift — so really, you just said, starting small. That means, of course, if we start small, on one hand we have this aspect that if we looked at it in total, if every one of us starts small somewhere, then in total that’s actually quite a lot, compared to everyone thinking, well, then there’s no point starting at all, so to speak. And we see that in many places, no matter what phenomenon or situation we apply it to, whether it’s doing sports, changing your diet, or anything else. And here we tend to always do a sprint, only to find we run out of breath and then don’t do anything at all. So too much all at once, and then the other extreme, doing nothing at all, instead of doing a bit every day, so to speak. And this bit, added up over 365 days, is actually quite a lot. So a lot can emerge from that. And regarding perspective shift — basically, on the aspect of, this is your opinion, that’s not yet a perspective shift, but it might become a perspective shift if the person who contributed that picks it up for themselves and somehow uses that perspective. How do we actually manage to slip into different perspectives ourselves? What options are there for that? Does anything come to mind?
Well, let me go into the teaching profession here, and I’d say, you always have to make sure you’re picking up on the children’s life experience, their world. That means I always think about what students’ answers might be, what students might say about it from their perspective. Even now, if I want to do a project like my podcast next year with the students, where I’ve thought about interviewing girls who play on a football team about the topic “you throw like a girl, how does that feel?” — things like that. And trying to think, okay, what does this bring the school, what does this bring the education ministry, what’s great for the students? And that’s kind of like coaching too — I was well advised on this training, and I always had to sit on a different chair. Sit on the other chair now, you’re the “noise companion.” How would you feel there? So a perspective shift really with this kind of conscious effort, sitting myself on that other chair deliberately — you noticed, that felt too forced for me in the moment, though I understand it. But I think a perspective shift works when we don’t see our own opinions as the right ones and say, that’s just how it is. It could be that I’ve swallowed all the wisdom in the world, and yet through perspective shift new impulses can emerge. Maybe it’s easier to explain with an example. Look at Elon Musk, for example. He’s been involved with these AIs too. He recently wrote an open letter saying we need to stop now. And there’s a nice satirical show that describes what background might be behind that. And of course, if you look at it that way, it’s great that someone’s finally saying we need to stop this. And then let’s put ourselves in Elon Musk’s shoes, which is personally a bit hard for me — he handles the Google-controlled part a bit better — and then think, okay, what are the motives behind making that possible? Because I think that’s good, because things aren’t inherently bad or good, except for facts, true or false. So if someone told me the earth is flat, I wouldn’t know where to start or end that conversation. But the point is, this kind of perspective shift, it’s good to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. For example, you can learn so much from children in school. And it’s age-based arrogance to say I know better, because sometimes children really do know better.
Yes, definitely. And that’s a nice example you brought up with Elon Musk too. Especially anyone who’s followed Elon Musk for a while, or reads the news or follows shows, might have noticed that Elon Musk, from the start, has used AI for himself, so to speak, for various developments and so on, and is deeply involved in it, while at the same time having warned long before, even before it hit the market, that basically various regulations and things like that are needed. And apparently, according to him, there was a conversation about this with Barack Obama at some point. Unfortunately he didn’t find a receptive ear though. What’s interesting is that he’s picking this up again now, and he’s not against AI per se, but of his view that the developments are happening so fast at this point that regulations take far too long to catch up, and the message is basically that it would be good to pause the whole thing for a while so the regulations can catch up, so to speak, and then you can continue again — that’s roughly the direction of the message. And so that’s really, really fascinating, while we’re all observing this, so to speak, and I think this is a nice example, because it’s also an example that shows how we ourselves deal with change. So maybe here too, looking at your own situation and thinking, have you already engaged with AI or not? To what extent have you already engaged with AI? A perspective shift is often only possible when I’m actually open to new topics at all, and engage with them intensively. And not just by consuming media and reading about what’s being said about it, but actually diving into that area a bit, and actually looking at it myself and seeing what you can actually do with it, or not. And then I can much better judge the dangers, or whatever, and at the same time also recognize the opportunities that are on the table in this context. So I find that a nice example here. And it represents many things that are new on the market, newly hyped, or similar. And while people in the past sometimes just didn’t believe the internet would catch on, or that everyone would have a PC at home, today we’re in a situation where many people can’t imagine that AI will actually conquer the market. And it certainly will. It won’t be stoppable. So this will be really, really fascinating. And I can only urge, so to speak, that people really engage with this topic and dive deeper. Because if we used to talk about digitalization, we now have an immeasurable multiplication happening here. And everyone who doesn’t engage with this will be mercilessly left behind. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. In the past we sometimes had the chance to still catch up, even if the starting point was a bit later, so to speak. But here we’re right in the middle of learning processes, and these learning processes that are being taken up now, and the multiplication behind them through the tools that can now be used — that’s an efficiency boost of several hundred percent, so to speak. You won’t be able to catch up if you only engage with it half a year or a year later. Even though many people don’t believe it yet today, it’ll be painful for those who don’t engage with these topics right now. Marc, a wonderful good morning. What do you think about that?
Good morning to the round. This whole thing, change and perspective shift, was actually a topic of conversation for us on May 1st, because my partner is also a teacher, and she told me about a case at school where a student cheated using ChatGPT to submit an assignment. And I said, that’s fantastic. So the reaction from the colleague who told her about it was — let me summarize — I caught someone cheating, and that’s cheating and so on. And then I said, well, my perspective shift on this would simply be, this is a really hot topic, you all need to discuss it, because first of all I would have congratulated the boy and said, I think it’s totally fantastic that you’re using new possibilities. Because who on the faculty knows how to use this, who of you has ever used ChatGPT? And congratulations, I think it’s great that you’re using the tools that are available. In the past he would have gone to the library and gotten information. He’s just using a tool that’s available. For me that has nothing to do with cheating, it’s just that the boy is technologically way ahead. And then I thought about it more, and there still needs to be some kind of regulation. And how do you explain that to the child? I don’t know what grade this happened in, but if I’d been in the teacher’s position, I would have tried to explain it like this: look, if you submit work that someone else did — and let’s use ChatGPT as an example of that “someone else,” whether it’s an artificial intelligence or not — then I can’t properly evaluate your performance. That would be roughly like commissioning a homework assignment and having your father write it, and your mother, because they’re biologists or scientists, and you submit work where I simply can’t see that it reflects your own performance. And you have to do a balancing act there too, on one hand A) motivating the students, or the other person, to use new technologies, whether I like them or not, and finding a set of rules for how to handle this going forward. But I just found it really fascinating, a really typical reaction, that it’s not even against the person — it’s how we’re conditioned, someone made a mistake, someone cheated, so that’s automatically bad per se. First I would have congratulated him, and you have to invite the others, the next generation, to use new techniques, so we don’t lose touch, and not immediately punish them at the first attempt and say, hands off anything new.
Yes, I find that a really fascinating aspect you’re bringing up. And especially if you’re familiar with these tools, you’ll also quickly recognize that it’s not just an application where you quickly type something in and the system spits out something you can just copy one-to-one, but basically it requires various thought processes, strategies, and ideas, in terms of how you phrase the questions too, because otherwise you just get junk out of it, so to speak. So it’s not simply using a tool, but it actually requires learning processes again, to see how I can act and interact meaningfully with this tool to get the results I want. And then we’re directly in a learning process again. And so this is something really, really fascinating here. And it’s not just, I quickly type in something fairly superficial and get a great answer, but the better I can use this tool, the better the questions are formulated, the tasks are formulated, and so on. And that requires, so to speak, logically coherent connections and so on. And that could definitely be evaluated, especially from the teacher and school perspective, considered and thought through. So this’ll be really, really fascinating here. And then I’d like to pick up on Tobias’s point in the chat — big steps are often not sustainable. Here too it’s about thinking the whole thing through to the end. The question is, if I continue down the path I’ve taken, where will I end up? It’s basically about developing foresight, and maybe first developing far-sightedness.
Yes, that’s totally justified as an objection on one hand. And at the same time we could just look back into the past. That would mean we shouldn’t fly, that would mean we shouldn’t use the internet, that would mean we shouldn’t globalize, and so on. So if we’d always said we have to think the whole thing through to the end and there are far too many disadvantages that could arise from it, we’d probably still be sitting by candlelight and things like that. The question is, is that helpful? So what exactly does perspective shift actually mean here, Layla?
Yes, I wanted to bring something in briefly — in the past, or still today, this is called equivalent performance assessment. To allow the perspective shift, let me make a quick detour. It’s actually really about the topic of fairness, because everyone has to do this assignment, and the “G” doesn’t stand for group work. That was already the case in the past too, that you sometimes had to explain that. My mom, my dad — no, no, you should have. So the tip here is simply, to be able to explain the technical terms that are in there, to actually read through it. And in the past you might have done copy-paste from Wikipedia and taken an interpretive essay from there. These are things that actually happened. Here it’s simply important, we have this sense of fairness, everyone has the opportunity. I can take my own degree as an example. When I studied German, we weren’t allowed to make spelling mistakes, which of course is obvious as a German student. Nowadays you can apparently even give it to an editor. But you need the financial means to hire an editor who can proofread that. And here too the question is, where’s the fairness for everyone? And that’s a bit the utilitarian principle at play here. I’m totally in favor of it. I’m actually really proud of my school and my colleagues right now, and I’m also doing continuing education on how to integrate AI into teaching. Figuring that out, that’s possible. You can watch Galileo shows about it, because you know your students. That doesn’t mean they can’t perform. It just means you ask more follow-up questions, and it should be integrated into teaching, because we can’t resist this development, that’s a fact. The question is how we integrate it, and how we make sure everyone has the opportunity to use it, and that this understanding process, it’s about learning success, is actually included. And it’s always like that when I look at something — in that room, Yasemin, last time it was about, how can we make education sexy? And I thought, education sexy doesn’t quite work for me, but how can we make it relevant? And I think the relevance is huge. And I think it’s important here that we go into this perspective shift, that we consider, they’re not afraid of paper cuts, they’re not all slow and old and unmotivated, but often it’s really about this fairness thing, it’s about sustainability, it’s about feeling understood, and of course there’s resentment there too, and I can’t defend against that, it exists. But I don’t think I’m a special case as a teacher who engages with AI — a lot of my colleagues do this too, and we have to try — a colleague of mine integrated it into her lessons and said, hey, come on, let’s do this together, how do we go about it, how do we ask the right questions, that’s important, and then also look at why these regulations exist, and that’s accumulation of consequences after Hans Jonas from the chat, that you think, okay, and what happens if only students who can afford it can do this, because there are students — you can’t imagine this — who don’t have a computer at home, they only have their phone. There’s a lot of things they don’t have. Even internet access is already a problem there. And they simply can’t afford a lot of things. And education should be free for everyone. And then this thing with AI isn’t such a big problem anymore, I think. And that you as a teacher then have to ask follow-up questions too. That’s our job.
Yes, thank you so much. And I find it really fascinating that this aspect of fairness comes up again here. We’ve already done rooms on this topic too, and had to acknowledge that there’s no absolute fairness, and there’s no fairness today either. If we look at studies or whatever, we’ll find, yes, education should be accessible to everyone, that’s one thing. Whether it has to be free is another topic, we can discuss that too. But access to education doesn’t necessarily equate to “fairness” — in many areas today we already have great injustices. Especially if we look at social background, unconscious bias comes into play, and so on. And now I could put forward a completely different thesis — maybe in the future it’ll actually be much “fairer” in a way, because today I’d have to put a lot of money on the table to hire an electrician, for example, to bring up that example. But with all the tools I can use now, I can partly get active for free, or for very little money, so to speak. So an entirely new market is opening up here that, thought through long-term, will actually open up completely different opportunities. So it could actually go in a completely different direction. But what could still be, regarding fairness or unfairness, more of a self-responsible factor for unfairness, is that the gap will widen even further, because those who don’t engage with this topic right now, thinking, oh, I’ll look at it later, will get quite a shock, because the gap will widen quite a bit for those who show no interest right now. Marc, you wanted to add something too.
Yes, after the conversation with my partner, I had another conversation with a friend that evening, and it was already clear to me before, but I thought yesterday, no matter which direction we look, we have incredibly many change processes happening, and yesterday it crossed my mind, I read in the newspaper that a major German company, a supplier for the automotive industry, is currently considering laying off 9,000 employees, and another one, because they simply can’t deliver parts for the automotive industry anymore. And another very well-known company in Germany is thinking about 100,000 jobs. And then, while walking, it hit me, oops, the automotive industry is the new mining industry, that’s the new mining, that’s what happened to miners. And my friend, who I discussed this with yesterday, is originally a miner, and we came to the insight that we have a lot of processes where we simply want to hold on to the past, and the future can’t be stopped. A lot of things happening might not please me, or please us, but we can’t hold onto the past. And we always start discussing, well, where can this lead, and what disadvantages does it have, whether it’s about heating or ChatGPT, whatever it is. We always want to hold onto the past, because it’s hard for us to accept change processes. And that’s the insight I had yesterday — actually, as a market participant, I really only have one option for myself. I can help shape the future, so I can become confirmed as a shaper, or do nothing at all, stay passive. But the future will happen, and there are simply a lot of processes we simply can’t stop, they’ll happen, and so wasting energy looking back, wondering what if this whole AI thing had never started, or what’s coming at us — as I said, we won’t stop it, and it’s much better to use that energy to, as you already said, dear Yasemin, think about regulations, look at what still needs regulating, and look at the process. But we can’t stop most processes, I’d almost say probably 99 percent of the processes coming our way, we can’t.
Yes, thank you. Layla, you wanted to add something too.
Yes, I was just thinking, because you brought up an important point with fairness. That’s also what you always see, that penguin, giraffe picture, that’s such a nice image, and the teacher stands there and says, today we’re practicing climbing. So there isn’t always fairness in education, and that’s an important point you’re raising. And yet I think you should support people. I thought back to my own studies, with the editor and these possibilities. You’re completely right. But you have to see these possibilities, and open people’s eyes to them. For me back then — and I’ll say it again, I have ADHD, but why — for me, filling out a student loan application was basically impossible, because it was way too much effort. And I recently watched a documentary showing that a lot of people apparently feel this way. And then they have two or three jobs to finance it while studying at the same time. And those are simply things it’s important to have an eye on. I’m not saying you shouldn’t do it, that you should deny it, because what Marc said, that’s this saber-tooth-tiger thing. We always want to think, what could happen if? Then we’re at beliefs and sayings. Everything was better in the past. I don’t know, that’s been carved into stone tablets already, that today’s youth is spoiled, that this is new. Better is also a thing now, like people saying everything has to be new now, if you’ve watched “How I Met Your Mother.” And these are just things, you should think about why you think that way and try to put yourself in that position. And you’re completely right, I think you can’t defend against it. And yet I think we have a responsibility in the education system to create these opportunities. But that’s a systemic thing, not just an individual thing — you have to create the opportunities systemically so everyone can use it. And I can only say again, my mother is — I always say it wrong — a seamstress. She has a lower secondary school diploma, and my father is a guest worker and a forklift driver. And they had no idea about AI. And even if I grew up today, my parents would have had completely different concerns. And if I hadn’t taken an interest in it myself, and if I’d had a self-image that didn’t go in that direction, like, I don’t want to engage with this, I feel stupid, then it wouldn’t have worked. And that’s why, this is the accumulation-of-consequences thing, but you’re right, fairness is also a matter of perspective. I’m still in favor of trying to make it as systemically fair as possible. And whether that’s fair, you can look at that too. But yes, I’m a representative of the education system. I stand behind it, but I do my best.
From my point of view it’s not a question of fairness, because this is about other aspects. It’s about relevance, and the relevance isn’t clear. And let me give an example — if we just looked at how many children in school have and use, for example, devices to play games, shooting games or whatever, we’d be shocked to see how many already have phones, how many use the internet, and how many are caught up in these games, which from my point of view isn’t beneficial in any way for the child’s development. But they all have access, completely independent of which educational background they come from — I’m speaking for the German-speaking region. And so I can’t talk about fairness here. It has to do with relevance. What’s needed here is education and outreach. What’s needed here is for schools to very quickly open up access and create opportunities. It’s not just about ChatGPT, it’s about AI-powered tools that can be used for all kinds of things. In the future, in combination with blockchain technology, we’ll no longer fill out forms manually and by hand, but have them filled out automatically, for example. So there’s a really, really massive development happening right now that we really shouldn’t underestimate at this point. And that’s why, from my perspective, a lot of education and outreach work is needed, to make the relevance and what I can do with it, in a positive sense, clear. And then of course we can also talk about the negative sides — those shouldn’t be ignored either, so to speak. Thank you, Tobias, by the way, in the chat too, for bringing up that there’s a misunderstanding here — it came across differently to me than you meant. Let me pick that up again. Example, internet foresight. The development of technologies will definitely continue. We should use these technologies as soon as possible. What can we do to use it in a sensible and good framework, that’s then the question. And Sören writes too, now we’re talking about AI again, why don’t we talk about how to use it? That would help many more people than potentially discussing fears and triggering blockages. What do you all think about that, do you want to add something or pick up on one point or another?
Yes, Layla, gladly. I find our discussion, though everyone can have their own perspective on it, actually really solution-oriented, because none of us is demonizing AI and saying, oh god, oh god, oh god, resist the beginnings. I think it’s more that it’s human to have emotions and to talk about these emotions, and then not let them dominate, not let them take up too much space, but take that step back. And I think we’re all three doing that pretty well, actually. And also what you said, Yasemin, I find that important too, with the relevance. You’re right, I’m focused on educational fairness, you’re focused on relevance. And I’m trying now to make this perspective shift, and you’re completely right. On the topic of shooter games, I actually have a different perspective now. You’re right, I see it the same way you do. I think age restrictions don’t exist for nothing, and you should watch what influences you expose yourself to, even as a young person. And I think there’s a difference between using a shooter game and downloading a learning app, whether you even think of doing that in the first place, and that was actually a point I wanted to raise. But I think relevance is a much more important point to talk about here, one that’s more in focus, and that’s why I welcome the perspective shift, and that goes far beyond AI. I just notice, in the end we always come back to relevance, to learning success. So I’m quite happy to be a teacher right now.
Yes, and relevance, learning processes, and so on, that brings us back to this lifelong learning too. It’s not something limited to school, so to speak, but because there’s such a high speed of technological progress and so on happening from outside, that ultimately means we’re occupied with learning our whole lives, whether we’re consciously aware of that or not. Ultimately, every day, all the retraining that happens, further education measures that happen, new tasks we’re assigned, and so on — all of that goes hand in hand with learning processes, and that’s exactly why this lifelong learning is so important, and we should really become very aware that it’s not something limited or confined to school, and then it’s over — we learn our whole lives. And so, so to speak, it does us good to keep learning new things, on one hand to keep our brain active. We’ve already talked about this having significance for our brain — the better trained our brain is, the longer it takes, for example, to show signs or symptoms of dementia or similar. That means learning both broadly and deeply, well into old age, is something we’re allowed to do gladly and well, so that we can positively use one thing or another here for our health too, in this context. And that’s not just in relation to working life or similar, but a whole package, thought through holistically, that brings us so, so much here. Marc, did you want to add something too?
Yes, I found what — I think Sören said it. It’s really important, what he wrote there. I think, and this happens to all of us in this discussion, perspective shift doesn’t mean giving up your opinion, your values, or your standpoint, but not passively dealing with new realities. That’s why I was really glad about Sören’s comment.
Yes, thank you so much. That means really opening new doors here too and looking at things from different perspectives. We talked over the last few days about how, especially with change processes, there are always two directions — moving away from something, and moving toward something. To move toward something, we need a bit of euphoria, joy, and so on. If we’re moving away from something, and unfortunately that happens much more often in many contexts, we need a corresponding sense of suffering, so to speak, so that we notice, uh oh, I need to do something now. Whatever that is, whether it’s love handles or something else, that we have something bothering us or causing dissatisfaction, that leads to a sense of suffering and through that triggers movement, so to speak. And in that sense, a crisis, like during the Covid pandemic and so on, you can view that however you like, but ultimately we all felt it, through decisions that were made from outside, that we had no influence over. And in this crisis too, so many new things emerged and so many new doors opened. Even through the sense of suffering that was, at one point or another, felt very, very intensely. Just looking at the discussions around home office, for example — that was partly unimaginable before. Many executives had an issue with it. There were always a lot of discussions in companies, along the lines of, if I allow that for one person, I have to allow it for the others too, and so on. And it was precisely the crisis that led to a huge, sudden switch, so that it suddenly became possible — because it was simply needed, so to speak — and that way new experiences could also be gathered with it. And regardless of how many companies are now switching back, or to what extent they’re switching back, or using both, a clear door has opened here, in one direction — namely, that it’s been shown to be possible to work from home, that it doesn’t necessarily mean the employee performs worse because of it. Layla, I think you wanted to add something too.
Right, I was just thinking, if we’re being solution-oriented now, and if I look at Sören’s comment, which is completely justified, I was just thinking, what actually triggers these blockages in a perspective shift? And it was also nice that you said we have this moving-away-from and this moving-toward. I had this sentence in my head internally — when someone tells me, we’ve always done it this way, I don’t know, that’s not an adequate justification for me to keep doing something a certain way, because this “from cradle to grave, habits are the only truth” is a really nice saying. But what holds us back? And moving-away-from, well, fear holds us back, fear of the saber-tooth tiger, in quotes. We think of bad news. And what would that foster? And how can we still not lose sight of the consequences? That’s a big question we probably can’t solve today. And I don’t even know if we want to. The point of the matter is, what triggers blockages in a perspective shift? And I think it’s sometimes also our own — I tend to make this sound a bit ironic — our own arrogance, that our own opinion is the right one. And that’s why I’m not willing — I’m capable, but I’m not willing to admit you’re right, because I’ve always done it this way, and I’m sure I’m right.
Yes, and what’s important is first of all to recognize that both have their place in these change processes. So it’s not like one is good and the other bad. Of course it’s nice when we move toward something with joy, so to speak. And at the same time it’s not bad, so to speak, that we sometimes also need this sense of suffering to get one thing or another into motion. Because if we always live in a certain comfort zone, in contentment, in security, then not much moves, so to speak, because there’s no reason to. And what can actually dissolve blockages is that we, to some extent actively, because we know how change works, this moving-away-from and moving-toward, that we sometimes deliberately look at one thing or another that we notice we have a bit of resistance to, because there are two essential questions our brain deals with, so to speak, and resistance arises when two essential questions get answered with no. One is, for every question at hand, does it secure my existence, so it’s always about survival — that’s just how we’re wired brain-wise. If it’s not about my existence, meaning if the answer to that is no, then the second question our brain asks is, does this improve my situation? And if I can’t recognize that — and here we’re back at this relevance point, Layla — if I can’t recognize that it improves my situation, then I have no willingness to engage with the topic. But how can I recognize whether it improves my situation or not, if I don’t first engage with certain topics to some extent, to see whether it improves my situation? So there’s a cycle triggered here, and that’s why this education and outreach work is needed, and people who, regardless of what context we’re talking about, keep pointing out the advantages of certain things, so that one thing or another can maybe be discovered by chance, maybe by taking part in some course, maybe by being in exchange, in dialogue, or however, unexpectedly, possibly not because you set out to do it quite deliberately and consciously — that’s one possibility. The other possibility is discovering one thing or another for yourself in dialogue about various topics, something you hadn’t expected. So dialogue really plays a really important role here too. Layla, Marc, would you like to add something too?
Gladly, Layla. I just wanted to say, you mentioned thinking about this comfort zone. You know I have some resentment toward that term, but that’s a personal thing. Because I was just thinking, yes, and we have to look at what it brings us, what’s the advantage. And then I thought, right, now I’m at the marshmallow experiment. And here we really have to distinguish between neurodivergent and neurotypical, socialization, and things like that. I think it’s the case that this success, that someone doesn’t just have to show me what it brings me, what the advantages are, but this long-term thing. It’s really this taking the long-term success and not always the short-term one. And I think this short-term success is, for some people or for many people, actually front and center, even if it’s unreasonable. With the example, do you take 100 euros now or 500 later? And that it’s then the other person’s job to enable this perspective shift and say, it’ll improve your situation in the long run. And coaches do that too, learning companions do that, everyone who gives me advice does that. And then the question is — and you once said this to me — it’s about asking the right questions. And I think it’s really important to ask the right questions. What’s the advantage right now, and what’s the advantage in the long run? And is this long-term advantage good for me, is it sustainable? Because I don’t think everyone can always recognize that, and not because of a lack of intelligence.
Yes. Marc, what do you think about that?
I have to smile about that right away, and I’d like to add to what Layla said. It’s not just about asking the right questions, but asking the right questions of the right person. Because if I ask the right questions in an emotional matter, for example, my partner leaves me and my friends say, how could she? Or my boss fired me and friends say, how could he? That’s just impossible. If the partner or the non-experts, whoever, are emotionally involved in my question, I get different answers than if I — that could be a coach or an expert — talk to people who have no emotional connection, neither directly to me nor to the problem, but who give me the perspective shift, or the standpoint they have on the matter. And it’s difficult when you talk to people who are closely connected to you. That’s the experience I’ve had.
Yes, thank you so much. And in that sense we can really think about this more, also the context, since we just mentioned emotions — if it’s a conflict conversation, or an argument, so to speak, or if it’s a situation where we notice the other person is currently enormously emotionally charged, then access might not be so easy at one point or another. What makes a real difference, especially in various contexts, is also being able to talk about it free of emotion. So, for example, a room like this one, to pick up on whatever topic it is, and simply bring in different examples. And through that, different perspectives open up. And that’s where we get to this unexpected element. That means, in this dialogue, something emerges, and I can’t plan exactly what emerges and what exactly lands with one person or another — that of course also depends on where the other person currently stands and what seems relevant to them or not. But at least, in this way, new perspectives can be generated, new aha-moments can develop, and so on. Whereas if I’m in a conversation where someone is already tremendously upset about something, and I then try to act with the “right questions,” so to speak, in that situation, I’ll likely find less receptivity. So other techniques can be used there, like creating irritation or something, to lead the person out of that emotion. But in the sense of “we’re talking about the topic, come down a bit,” so to speak, that doesn’t necessarily help at that point. So this exchange is really fascinating, I’d like to say. And Sören writes, I have to laugh right now, well, Patrick writes, you can leave the comfort zone with suffering. And Sören writes, there’s no such thing as lacking intelligence, only lacking effort. And with that, I’d like to move into today’s closing round. You’re welcome to make connections again if you want, and then bring in your highlight or closing word for today. Layla.
Yes, I had to smile a lot when I read that too. I was just thinking, language creates reality. And whether I tell the other person, in trying to calm them down, “just relax already,” or whether I set myself on a high horse and say, figuratively speaking, “your intelligence is measured by the gap between your ears,” in most cases that won’t work out, no matter how open the other person is. I’ve noticed that insight and perspective shift doesn’t just have to do with language, but with emotions too. So I’d like to close with three quotes, three sayings. I once heard, “from cradle to grave, habits are the only truth.” Then I heard, “he who rests, rusts.” And then I heard, “new is always better” from “How I Met Your Mother.” Let everyone decide for themselves how they’d like to handle that, and maybe that opens up a perspective shift. Thanks for listening.
Yes, thank you so much. Marc?
For me, what’s stuck with me further today is, again looking to the future — who do I ask, and what do I ask. Thanks, and have a good start to the week.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. I found that a super fascinating and stimulating discussion, exchange, that we had. And yes, let’s just let it sink in and see what emerges from it. Tomorrow we continue with insight and goals — the significance of goals for gaining insight. Do we maybe need to set ourselves goals to generate insights from them? On this path, in this process, or what actually matters here, or is it goal achievement, the result? So here too we’ll approach it from different perspectives and gladly pick up various examples too, to see where the room develops tomorrow accordingly. I’m really, really curious about that too. And finally I’d like to briefly point to the link about us — AI tools for your business. Anyone who’d like to actually engage not just with ChatGPT, but AI tools in general, because they’ve been around for a while, and ChatGPT has just become known as a trend so to speak. But there are so, so many others, and every day more tools come onto the market. And in the German-speaking region there’s a lot you can use and apply too. So a kind of introduction to artificial intelligence and its areas of application, to get an overview — what AI tools are out there, what platforms can you use, both for the German-speaking and the international market, for anyone who wants to dive deeper and really recognize and use their own opportunities in this field. Maybe even as an “early bird,” because most people are actually still asleep on this. Which isn’t negative — the longer others sleep, the better and faster we can move ahead here in the fast lane. So everyone can decide for themselves — fast lane or not, or take more of an observing role. And that’s everyone’s own choice. And in that sense you’re warmly invited, whoever has the time and interest, to join via the link pinned here. And whoever can’t make it that day at that time — that’s the day after tomorrow evening at 7:30pm, or is it tomorrow evening? I’m all mixed up now. No, it’s tomorrow evening. Yeah, I’ve lost all sense of time. Tomorrow evening at 7:30pm. If you have another appointment then, the whole thing will be recorded and can be watched afterward as a recording. So it’s definitely worth securing your ticket if this interests you. And with that, I look forward to welcoming you again tomorrow morning. Thank you so much for your wonderful contributions and the various perspectives we opened up. And tomorrow, as I said, we continue with the connection to goals, and I’m curious what results will come out of that room. With that, I wish you all the best, have a lovely day, and see you again soon.
