Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: How do companies and markets shape power dynamics? That’s the question we explore in Room #930 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme of “Power & Violence.” Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…
Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.
A very warm good morning to you all. Warm greetings from Austria today. We managed to get everything set up in time. Let’s see how stable this holds up here too — there are still a few quirks and rough edges. So I’m really curious about that. But hey, we’re on air again. And yes, today we’re continuing with power in the economy. That’s the topic we want to explore as our room topic today, with the question: how do companies and markets shape power dynamics? I’m really curious about that, and above all I’m looking forward to really getting started right away with a shared exchange of the different thoughts you have as first impulses, so we can just pick that up and see together what emerges from the exchange in terms of different perspectives, and which direction the room takes accordingly. So you’re all very warmly invited to join in again this morning too, and share your first impulses on the topic, and for anyone who might be joining for the first time today, another reminder that the room gets recorded the whole time, and anyone who joins automatically agrees that it’ll be published too. We have three small room rules — let me think for a second — right, a profile photo where you’re clearly recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. So, if you’d like to join, please keep that in mind, and if for whatever reason you can’t speak right now, or you’d simply like to stay anonymous, you of course also have the option, as always, to just use the chat. So, with that, I’m curious who’d like to open the dialogue with me this morning.
Good morning, dear Marc. A very warm good morning, dear Marc. Unfortunately I still can’t hear you. Maybe now — something seems to be there. One quick check. Okay, one more time — can you hear me now? Now I can hear you.
Sorry, I have this super hyper-modern, what do you call it, phone now, where you don’t dial in analog anymore, and since the latest software update I have to be careful — my iPhone and my headphones automatically connect to the main phone. Hadn’t had that happen before either. Good morning to the round. I thought about this idea of power in the economy for myself first — power in the economy, in what relationship, against whom — and I landed on society, on all of us, because a company has employees, and through that also on politics. And I also thought about, in this connection of power and the economy, how power actually gets exercised, and in comparing what power the economy has, I found a list where it’s about money. So a company earns money, and with that comes power, and a state has power too, and I found it really fascinating that there are companies in the world with such high revenue that they exceed the tax revenue of entire countries — for example, Walmart in the US has revenue higher than Spain’s tax revenue. And I thought, oh, so they have a certain kind of power. And in that context I find it interesting to consider, if we look at the economy now and talk today about what power a company has, or what power the economy has, to also ask the question, well, who are actually the powerful ones in today’s world? And then, how does state power differ — maybe that’s a new topic — but how does state power differ from economic power? And how do both enforce their power? How does power even get recognized in the first place? And is there a difference with the word “power” when it comes to the form of the state? There I naturally think of state authority being enforced. And with companies, I feel a bit more comfortable not with the word “power,” but with the word “influence.” Influence is something lesser, because power can be enforced through all kinds of things. But personally, I feel more comfortable with the word “influence,” because it sounds a bit less threatening.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. There were quite a few thoughts in there already. Above all, the question arises for me — since we’re looking at this from an economic perspective, and you brought in the term state power too — to what extent state power might also play a role in the context of the economy. So that’s an exciting aspect too. And with that, I’m really grateful for these first impulses, and I’d like to use this opportunity, now that a few more people have joined the room, to warmly invite you all to join in and share your first thoughts on the topic too. You’re all warmly invited to step into the exchange. Just a quick reminder again, the room gets recorded the whole time, and anyone who joins automatically agrees that it’ll be published afterward, and we have three small room rules to keep in mind: a profile photo where you’re recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. Otherwise you of course also have the option to join in via the chat.
Did you have the chance to dig deeper into this beforehand, Marc, in terms of research, or were these completely spontaneous thoughts just now?
No, those were completely spontaneous thoughts, and after I’d looked at the economy and at politics, I thought, well, I’m a company too, and I actually wanted to start this morning’s contribution by saying my company has little power. You can already tell just from the fact that I pay my taxes in Germany. That’s part of the topic of power too. And that the street I operate on hasn’t been named after my company yet. I’m working on it though. And then I distinguish between sole proprietorships, small businesses, and corporations. And I found out, or it’s generally known too, that corporations tend to take over industries that are completely out of reach for smaller companies, simply due to capital and competitiveness. And when you look at which industries those are, to draw a distinction with a sole proprietorship, say a tax advisor or a business lawyer or a lawyer, you quickly land on industries where the corresponding companies immediately come to mind — for example energy, telecommunications, transport, pharma, construction, automotive, food, and insurance. Those would be a few examples where we get closer to the topic of economy and power again. So those would be areas where companies can exercise much, much more power than I can.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and maybe we can look more closely at that too — through what power actually gets exercised. So maybe take a closer look at that too. We might also have some really concrete examples we can open up, to make the whole thing tangible too. First, I’d like to bring Sabine into the round too. A very warm good morning, dear Sabine, and then we can draw cross-connections too.
Yes, good morning everyone. When I hear this about power, it reminds me of something we’ve actually had before — who’s really powerful, whether that happens more in the foreground or in the background. Because what Marc just listed, those are all companies that are very powerful in the foreground too, because we have no electricity if we don’t have them, or insurance, and so on. In the background, I think, the power by now lies with companies like BlackRock, Big Data, the Amazons of this world, and yes, that’s what comes to mind for me on the topic of power and the economy. And that’s a bit of what we had too, with, what’s his name, Ernst Wolf or something, recently, and that came to mind for me right away, and really the power is with these companies.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. So that means there are different levels here too. What’s actually visible and perceptible at this point, and what maybe isn’t immediately recognizable to us. That doesn’t mean that if you do research, you won’t come across it, but it means it might not be quite so obviously accessible in a lot of places, and only through corresponding research, and looking more closely at it, can you actually recognize the corresponding connections, or wiring, so to speak. Regarding the economy and companies, and the entanglement of corporate and state power and so on, I especially thought again about all these connections toward politicians and things like that too. There are always these connections, and that fits with this Ernst Wolf aspect too, that — let me just check something, I’ll mute myself for a moment, the car noise in the background is distracting me — and it actually fits quite well with the Ernst Wolf examples and so on, that if you look more closely, you also find entanglements, for example between people in influential positions and connections to individual companies too, and here certain conflicts of interest can arise, but on the other hand, this also sets certain levers of power in motion, in quotation marks. And especially when you observe various things in the media, there are always connections here in the past too. Maybe we have some really concrete examples we can open up here too, and use them to demonstrate this to some extent. With that, I’d like to invite Jürgen into the round too, so we can start the exchange, bring him in here too, and then afterward we can gladly get right into these cross-connections too. Jürgen, a very warm good morning.
Good morning, dear Yasemin, good morning everyone in the room. Honestly, this overarching topic overwhelms me a bit — power in the economy. And that’s why, as so often, I’ll orient myself around your subtitle for today’s topic, which reads, “How do companies and markets shape power dynamics?” And what’s been said so far touches on this question, in my view, if you take it quite concretely. But what’s a really decisive point for me is getting clear on what we actually understand by “markets.” Marc positioned himself as an example. Marc is an entrepreneur. I am too, and you, dear Yasemin, are an entrepreneur too. What a company is, okay, let’s check that off, but what are markets, and the power dynamics? Forgive me, but we should get clear on that too — the relationship between whom, exactly? How do companies shape, or how do markets act on, which relationship between whom? Is this web of power meant between these two, namely between companies and the markets they operate in? Or, well, what is the market? That’s the question I’m raising here. And the second aspect I’d like to bring in, also a really essential point, which you’ve already touched on, is this competition between the state and companies, which both represent positions of power, so to speak, and which have quite different instruments for exercising power. I’ll use this word now, and thank you, dear Marc, for pointing that out. Above all, and this is a really essential point for me, they have different starting conditions, companies and the state, when the latter acts as an entrepreneur. So, you might notice, my aim is to streamline this toward a very specific position or question. And as I said, my first focus would be your subtitle, “How do companies and markets shape power dynamics?” Thank you for listening.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Let’s draw some cross-connections then, and maybe try to answer the first questions too. Marc, Sabine, do you have further thoughts on this?
Well, “markets” can of course mean a lot, and maybe it’s worth considering what would even be conceivable and possible here, without prescribing anything, but rather thinking about it together. Sabine.
Yes, sorry, I’m in the car in the rain first, so I’m not so great with switching on and off. Sorry about that. What comes to mind for me with markets is, yes, the electricity market, the financial market, the supermarket. So markets aren’t just the global market. We could expand on markets endlessly. And from that angle, it’s certainly really, really difficult. You’re completely right about that, Jürgen. And when I go to the supermarket, it’s the same thing again — I have the corner store, but I also have the corporations. And there it’s the big players that matter, and it’s not just Aldi playing, but Nestlé plays a completely different role in the background too. What I wanted to say again about power, also more in the background — who’s actually powerful there? The powerful ones are those who, in the end, have the right lobbying. If you look at Berlin, you know who all has a lobbying office there. The corporations don’t sit in Berlin, but they keep an office there so they have a direct line to politics. And that’s often where power gets exercised in the background, economically at least. And I mean, if a company like BASF says, we’re moving to America because electricity is too expensive for us here, that doesn’t leave everyone unaffected, because in our region, I don’t know if this is exactly right, but roughly, I think 20,000 jobs, not at BASF itself, but all the ones indirectly connected to it. So there’s a certain justification, but poor Marc obviously can’t go to Berlin and say, I have a problem right now with something, with China or whatever — nobody’s going to listen to that.
Yes, thank you so much. I’d like to ask first, Marc, would you like to follow up here too? Gladly, and then we can bring Layla into the round too.
Very gladly, and first I’d like to replace the word “lobbying” with “network,” and then, dear Yasemin, connect that to the network people have built, which makes cooperation easier, both politically and economically. And then I want to say, dear Jürgen, access became really clear to me — if we probably don’t like to think back to the Covid period, that period would have been a fantastic opportunity for me to catapult myself into becoming a multi-millionaire. Why didn’t that happen? Well, I didn’t have the right network, and I’ll explain why in a moment. Since I work very closely with Asia, I know what these masks actually cost. A normal mask, not the FFP2 mask, I’d estimate 40 to 50 cents, probably even less. Normal masks cost around 15 US cents. And when I think of the scandal that came out of certain parties, where people procured masks worth several million, not because they had a better network to producers in Asia, but I didn’t know, or don’t know, the right people — for one thing, it wouldn’t have worked out for me financially either, because I would have needed insane amounts of upfront capital to procure masks for millions of citizens. I couldn’t have even made the down payment as an entrepreneur. My production network wouldn’t have helped me there at all. And I also didn’t have the right network to reach the distributors. And that brings me back to you, dear Yasemin, and to you, dear Jürgen — that access to markets gets enabled, and becomes easier, if I have the right network. It’s not even about whether the person who handled the mask procurement in Germany is more competent than the market, whether they really know more about it. No, they got better access through their network. And we can replace “network” with “lobby” again too, like Sabine said. And this networking then makes it possible to react to markets faster, or on short notice. Although it would also be important to say, without the right network, we don’t have access to the markets, regardless of what idea we have, and regardless of what expertise we have.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. With that, I’d first like to bring Layla into the round, who might want to jump in directly on one question or another too. Then I saw that Jürgen has also raised his hand again, just as a signal that I’ve seen it. And then let’s really try to switch back and forth and juggle thoughts here. And I think it’s really important that we bring in examples too, because I think, through these examples coming in, we also have the chance to work our way along the terms, or the questions, to some extent. Layla, a very warm good morning. What do you have to say on this?
A very warm good morning. I thought about the terms — it’s about power in the economy, so also about what influence it has. And I don’t know if the average consumer always notices that. They notice it when prices go up, when milk gets more expensive again because companies compete with each other and decide they want, or will only demand, a certain price for that milk, and then farmers take to the streets, for example — that’s when I notice it. I notice it when I turn on ProSieben and realize, oh, there’s something in my Teflon pan that’s spreading throughout the whole environment, and they haven’t banned it yet, because apparently it’s a really good substance that’s currently in use, in production, it’s really good for that purpose. And yes, well, I hadn’t noticed that with my Teflon pan either. And yet it’s being considered whether this substance should be banned, because it’s actually assessed as having disadvantages for the human organism, and we already find it everywhere, or frequently, in the environment, if I understood that correctly. Those were things that stood out to me, and the last time I noticed something was with Philipp Amthor. I thought, yes, because he was recently in the media and commented on something with the phrase “let’s get started,” and I thought, yeah, that’s typical Amthor. And while we’re on the topic, I notice that people like him have also let themselves be influenced by companies on certain things. But somehow, I don’t know if that’s considered proper or not, because the outrage was moderate, he’s back in the game now, and I don’t know if that’s lobbying or economic interests, but yes, somehow, I don’t know if that’s part of it. Can you explain that to me? You’re the entrepreneurs, not me. And I don’t think you do things like that.
Yes, thank you so much. It always takes me a little moment, because I’m sitting in the car here, so to speak, with all the technology around me, and I have to operate various things at the same time and switch back and forth. So don’t be surprised if there’s always a small delay effect. That has nothing to do with me being inattentive or anything, quite the opposite — it’s just that being in the car presents a different kind of challenge here. Just a quick side note on that. Jürgen, you wanted to follow up too, and then I’m curious where exactly we can connect this, especially this subheading I put together with the help of ChatGPT, by the way — how companies and markets shape power dynamics — to really take that apart again and see what we want to understand by it. Jürgen.
Yes, thank you. I’ll pick up the question you already raised earlier, or, let me put it this way, jump over the stick you held out, essentially to bring in examples too, and I’ll come back to what is, for me, if I put it this way, the really essential question of understanding a market. We all have an idea of what a market is, but in the concrete discussion of what power should actually be attributed to a market, I think it’s important to distinguish between two positions in particular. We all know markets — I don’t mean the weekly farmers’ market, but the most common markets known to all of us are stock exchanges. Exchanges exist to bundle supply and demand and bring them into balance through a pricing mechanism. There are of course endlessly many kinds of exchanges, and accordingly endlessly many markets too, but on a meta-level they differ by a distinction into so-called regulated markets and unregulated markets. And a regulated market is definitely only this: a regulated market is an exchange operated by market participants. Even our German stock exchange is an independent company — that’s really important. So the market isn’t just something different from, or a counter-position to, companies, but the market, in the form of an exchange, also functions as a company itself. That has really essential implications for the power dynamics between the two. And the second thing — there are also unregulated markets, and this “unregulated” distinguishing criterion derives from the fact that these markets aren’t subject to any, and now pay attention to terminology, legal or regulatory obligation. These markets are freely agreed upon among the participants. And you could now say, according to self-made rules, also according to very specific individual power dynamics. And that’s why, dear friends, as I said at the start, this topic is so powerful that just the discussion, or, from my point of view, achieving clarity about this relationship between market, markets, in the distinction I’ve made, and companies, and as a company, already represents a huge topic in itself. I’ll just leave that as it is for now — whether you want to pick this topic up or pursue it further, up to you, but that was my main point I wanted to share with you right now. Thank you for listening.
Yes, thank you so much, and I’d like to follow up on this and ask, would you like to continue developing that a bit further, also in relation to the power dynamics, because you also formulated a pointed question about that. Maybe we can spin that further in that direction too.
Yes, well, I can bring that in quite specifically from, logically, the banking sector. And there are, if you apply today, for example as a startup, once it’s reached a certain size, to be admitted into various segments of stock exchange listing, there are certain entry requirements. The size, or the profitability, is actually the least important of these, I’d say. It’s especially disclosure requirements, and lately proof of sustainability, and so on. That means the exchange, as an independent company, in our case in Germany the Deutsche Börse AG, determines through regulations, not through laws, through regulations, quite clearly, who can enter this exchange market, from a certain size or quality onward, however you define it. And it also decides when a participant, let’s say, as you’ve certainly heard often, falls out of the DAX, for example, because they no longer meet certain criteria. That means, in the end, that the power position an exchange holds, as a company, to exclude a participant from a certain market, is a really enormous one, and that’s why it’s worth getting clear on what power dynamics exist between these two positions you mentioned, or subtitled, companies and markets, and on the other hand, also the fact that this market itself, and this is really important for me personally to understand these power dynamics, is itself a company too. I’ll say it again quite clearly, and companies have two essential, primary motivations. They want to keep existing, and they want to grow. And that applies, on a meta-level, to both, companies and markets. And within that is where the power games begin. I hope I was able to specify that reasonably well, dear Yasemin.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and especially, at the end, with the “power games” — I find it wonderful that this term got brought in too, dear Jürgen. Sabine, I saw you also wanted to add something in the meantime.
Yes, actually just a quick thing about the market, and we also have to keep in mind that markets change incredibly. The interest rate market used to be something you could clearly say what it depended on — it was supply and demand in the long-term range. I’m talking about the mortgage interest rate market now. Short-term interest rates didn’t have much influence on that at all. But today, in this globalized world, all of that has completely changed. And even an economist today is basically helpless — they can’t tell you where the market will be in half a year or a year. And it’s the same with the stock exchange. It used to be a package where you could clearly say, supply and demand. Today there’s so much speculation against it. Today the world is global, other channels like crypto have come in, where money flows too. So it’s also become harder to assess the markets at all. That’s just what I wanted to add to what Jürgen said.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and here the question naturally arises, if we think in this direction, what about all the dependencies too? So if we really pick up these entanglements again, which we’ve also opened up in connection with the overarching theme “Pioneering Spirit With Brain,” where we look at individual developments not in isolation from each other, but in their interplay. If you now take a decision that’s being considered, or even just the discussions taking place around it, for example with heat pumps — what effect does that have, say, on the real estate market? Or, you just mentioned the interest rate market, Sabine — what effect do interest rate hikes taking place have, again in terms of chain reactions being triggered, for example that people who maybe bought real estate a few years ago, planned their financing over 30 years, so to speak, suddenly, after five or ten years, depending on how they structured their financing, how long they locked it in, suddenly can’t continue financing it anymore because interest rates have gone up massively. Which can result, for example, in a lot of forced auctions, because people can’t take out follow-up financing anymore, in part. And that in turn has an impact on the general real estate market too. So here too we really have cycles that emerge, through chain reactions that get triggered. And that’s why it’s really important to keep re-establishing these entanglements too. I’m curious about that too — do you have further thoughts you’d like to bring in? Sabine, did I see correctly that you wanted to speak again?
Yes, yes, it’s not quite working well somehow. This gets me a bit worked up, because the real estate market right now is being influenced from so many sides. I mean, we actually have two ministries agreeing, but I think right now it’s the Building Energy Act that’s influencing things much more. Plus, if I have real estate from 1940 or 1950, it’s dropped in value now, because of course nobody dares to buy such a property today unless they simultaneously get the means, or, in quotation marks, the liquidity, provided by the banks to bring it up to a level where it’s livable long-term, and not just livable, but also accepted by the state that you’re allowed to live in it in that condition. I keep hearing, well, modernization has to happen today, and if we have a property from 1950 or 1960, it has to be brought up to standard, otherwise it’s a demolition case. But you always have to put yourself in the shoes of the people who own it today. If they can’t afford it, then it’s a demolition, and that’s also a form of, to some extent, expropriation. And I mean, I understand the energy side, or the other side too — we have to do something for sustainability. It’s just that the path there right now, I don’t know if it’s entirely the right one at the moment. Now they’re backpedaling a bit, and now it’s also being said, well, those who can’t afford it, or those who are 80 years old, don’t have to do it at all. But let’s see what comes of it. In any case, it’s an influence where a lot of people already say, I can’t even look at an old property anymore, what’s going on there? And I get this discussion daily with the banks. Some have already backpedaled and say, energy class G and H, we don’t finance those anymore. Don’t even bother coming to us with that. So this is not an uncritical market, by any means. And all of this against the background that we actually need 400,000 new houses — sorry, not houses, but properties, of which I think only about 130, 140 thousand are even being built this year, out of the needed 400,000 per year. So I don’t know where that’s headed, and of course, on top of that, demand is pushing on the market, real estate prices are still too high, interest rates are too high, so right now I don’t really know where this is going, and on the other hand I also see real estate agents — I mean, the big ones will hold out, but for the small ones it’s already gotten pretty difficult, data-wise. Okay, now I’ve really got to go. I wish you all the best. Thank you. Bye.
Yes, Jürgen, I saw you raised your hand. Go ahead.
I keep raising my hand more often because I don’t know if my signals are coming through. I already told you that especially in the last few days, it’s been really tough just getting into the room at all. I’ve had some issues with that, so sorry if I keep raising my hand. But dear Sabine, we’re really at the heart of the topic here. Actually, with this development, and what resonates subtly underneath it, is the question, is there even a way to simply exit these markets? If interest rates are too high for me, or in other areas, if I don’t like the price fixing there, can I just step out? And that’s really not, in my view, a trivial question, especially in our time today. There’s a very prominent example of this being practiced right now, and that’s digital currencies. Digital currencies, so-called digital currencies, we’ve talked about this before, are nothing other than escape mechanisms out of a regulated market, namely the foreign exchange market. Certain market participants, and pay attention here, entrepreneurs with a corresponding interest, try to build a counter-position against a regulated market. And the same would definitely be possible for a real estate market. I see it the same way. That private investors — and as far as I can remember, I tried to find out just now but couldn’t find anything concrete — there are already ways to arrange completely different interest rate agreements through private institutions, companies, outside the regulated market. So this is basically logical for me too, because wherever a certain power reigns, there must also be, and there are, ways to free yourself from that power. And the simplest form is to simply no longer participate in that market. And the necessary consequence, from an entrepreneur’s perspective, is that then I need other mechanisms. And to bring this to a close, from my point of view, if I may — the actual power of these markets, the ones we’re talking about, or most of the markets we’re talking about, is the original business of the banker. Because the banker doesn’t have a product they take off a shelf and sell, sitting in packaging somewhere to look at. The product of banking and financing is information. Specifically, the information to procure funds through certain markets, and pass them through, under the aspect of a certain margin, or profit realization. We’re back at the topic of power, markets, information. And dear Sabine, your memory of Wolf, the presentation, which I also found incredibly powerful, what he offered back then — I won’t come with numbers now, but I agree with you 100 percent on that. BlackRock is, for me right now, basically the pacemaker of the global market, period. Thank you for listening.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and I saw that Layla had raised her hand too, and then Sabine again please. Yes, and regarding Sabine’s remarks, I was thinking, well, it was also about modernization and so on, and what gets financed and what doesn’t get financed, and then I thought, yes, and if I look at the big cities now and look at the prices, I think it’s a shame — I don’t know, I’m a renter, so I’m complaining about this now — I find it a real shame that a 50, 60 square meter apartment costs 1,200 euros cold rent. I really find that a shame. That I also have to worry about whether it’ll soon be modernized, whether it’ll get adjusted according to the rent index, we’ll leave that aside. I was just thinking, since I went to a business-focused high school, it did have something to do with who actually has the influence, and if it’s those who can afford to modernize and can afford it, then this market gets smaller. And the smaller the market, the greater the risk, potentially, of a monopoly. I don’t know if that’s right, I’m just guessing now. I’m going off my personal experience with landlords. If they hold the power, they demand whatever they want. Which doesn’t mean landlords are stupid, not at all, because my dad is a landlord too, and owning real estate is a great thing. It’s just about the fact that when we pull these levers, I think we create influences that have effects. And I wanted to emphasize that briefly, because sometimes in discussions like this you get this feeling of, does this even affect me? Yes, it does. Even if you don’t own property, it affects you, because your salary gets divided up, and we now pay quite a lot of our salary for rent, much more than before. And the more influence the economy has here, the more certain interests have influence here, the more effects that has on me too, and on everyone else. And I always want to point that out. That’s why it’s really fascinating how this comes about. And yes, I’m happy to keep listening. Just wanted to add my two cents, and I’ll keep listening.
Yes, thank you so much, and of course this raises questions too — there are aspects in these discussions like rent caps, for example, and there we’re back in regulation, so to speak, whether that makes sense or not, or what effects that has on the other side again. And interestingly, just a few days ago I talked to someone about taxis and Uber and things like that, because this person has been a taxi driver for many years themselves, and of course, in quotation marks, it breaks their heart to watch how demand shifts, especially with this competition from Uber and so on, along the lines of, we should just ban it. But then the question quickly arises, well, why should one area get regulated and not another? We’d have to do that everywhere then. It’s not just Uber — in a lot of places we could look at where a lot of examples can be opened up. Things like comparison portals used on the internet, for example. Or you know, I can’t think of the name right now, this central platform where more and more restaurant owners, big or small, feel more or less forced to sign up with, because otherwise they have no… it’s called Lieferando, I think, right? Exactly, Lieferando. So these centralizations that take over huge market shares, and if you, as a small retailer, in quotation marks, but this applies to bigger ones too, don’t connect with them, you basically have almost no chance anymore, because a huge amount of business runs through this kind of comparison portal. But then this angle also opens up toward dumping prices and so on, because the consumer, in quotation marks, naturally tends to look for where they get the cheapest flight, or the cheapest hotel that appeals to them, or the same hotel even cheaper. So these aren’t different hotels, it’s one and the same thing being picked up and compared on price. And that of course does something not just to the companies, in quotation marks, and to the market, and the whole developments, all the way to, and here we’re back at chain reactions, jobs and so on. Yes, it’s not something that doesn’t concern me just because I’m only the consumer — at the end of the day it comes back around to affect me too. That becomes noticeable. Sabine, you wanted to add something, and then, Jürgen, I’ll bring you all back in.
Yes, on the topic of rent — Layla said you can step out of the system. Yes, theoretically someone can step out of the system by simply selling their house, or selling their apartment, and moving into a rental. But conversely you have to ask, who are landlords today? Landlords are, by and large, also a lot of companies, or private people who, in the end, are of course investors. Accordingly, they run the numbers too. It has to add up, and if all costs were higher, rents would be higher too. It’s just a bit of a time lag. So from that angle, Layla, I don’t think rents are going to get cheaper. I think they’re more likely to get more expensive. And from that angle, it’s not really an escape from the market either. But then you’d have to go a step further and ask, isn’t the mistake already happening much earlier, when, in Berlin and elsewhere, publicly-owned, non-profit housing got sold off? And shouldn’t we go a step further and ask, isn’t it actually a problem that sovereign state matters got privatized in the first place? And now people look and point their finger and say, well, that can’t be that expensive, it should be cheaper. But the moment it’s privatized and there’s an entrepreneur behind it, it has to add up for them too, in the end. And that’s of course a whole different chain reaction again. I’m going to sign off now too, since I’ve just arrived at my seminar. It was another really great room. So thank you for that, and my closing word too — incredible what a chain of connections this is. Thank you so much and have a nice day.
Thank you so much too, dear Sabine. Jürgen?
Yes, dear Yasemin, with your last statement you’ve basically already led over to the second question I see arising from today’s topic. As I said, your subtitle is, “How do companies and markets shape power dynamics?” And the second thing we’ve arrived at is how the state and companies compete for power, and you said, if I’m reproducing this correctly, why at all, and who can intervene in a regulating way, or intervene in the markets in some other form, and that’s exactly the second essential point for me in this context — that, as I said earlier, exchanges aren’t just some characterless thing that channels supply and demand through a pricing mechanism, but are companies themselves. And now, regarding this question, and the topic that’s kept coming up, a potentially regulating intervention in the rental market or the real estate market — that brings the state, as an essential actor, into this power dynamic, especially in relation to companies, but also to us personally. And I already mentioned this, on one hand, everyone knows the state, only the state, for example, is able to act on companies through legislation, laws, through a legislative process. Regulations are usually set by subordinate bodies, and can also be dictated by interest groups, but they by no means have the enforcement power that a state has. And the underlying motive, and let me repeat this, from my point of view, why, your question, why and in what form does the state intervene in a regulating or legislating way — that’s quite trivial for me: the state also has an essential interest in continuing to exist, and not just enforcing its political agenda, but stabilizing it over a longer period of time. And accordingly, for me, the state is one of the essential actors that enters into this power dynamic between companies and markets at all. That’s, for me, the bridge between these two questions, your subtitle, and the state’s intervention as an actor in the markets. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. And Marc, you also haven’t had the chance to speak in a while, and since Layla is currently on the phone, I’d like to give you the chance to jump in here too. Were there any other aspects you wanted to bring in, or where you’d like to follow up, dear Marc?
Yes, exercising power also involves money. That applies to companies as well as to the state, and I think, if you follow the news, there was a really, really small news item — on April 17th, the most powerful company in the world bought a bank, namely the company Apple. Within just a few weeks, they managed to get citizens to transfer over a billion in money to this bank, and the fascinating thing about this, I never consciously registered this development before — to open an account there, so to actually manage my money there at all, I of course need their fantastic operating system, which naturally has two essential advantages for the company. First, it enters a completely new market, where it can exercise power again, namely the market of money, the banking market, and second, it prevents customer churn, because before I ever consider switching to a new operating system, or try to use one, while at the same time having all my money with this company, which then also gets managed through this operating system, I’ll think twice about that. And I found it pretty impressive that Apple, with this bank acquisition it made — not just any bank, but a bank to be taken seriously — managed that within a few weeks. The emphasis is on “to be taken seriously.”
Yes, thank you so much, and countless examples could really be opened up here, and the same questions keep coming up again and again — what’s it needed for, do we want it, regulation in what form, and what are the effects on one side or the other. So really so many doors that can be opened in various directions here, showing too how complex these topics ultimately are. If we’ve now touched on so many aspects, so to speak… and Layla wanted to say something right away here too. You’ll get the chance from me in just a moment, Layla. And that shows just how complex it is. Theoretically, you could probably open up a separate room for every single aspect we’ve now taken from various areas, and then really look specifically at that, and the pros and cons, and the purpose, and so on. A whole hour really. And that probably wouldn’t even be too long, to look at it from various perspectives, reflect on it, and gain clarity. That would probably even be sensible at this point. So just mentioning that on the side. It really shows how complex this question is in this context.
Unfortunately. Go ahead. And then let’s move directly into today’s closing round.
Right. I just wanted to briefly mention, because I followed the lively discussion attentively. And I have to say, I’m not always — in economic matters — I went to a business-focused high school myself, and I like money. But I always think, some things don’t concern me. What I noticed today is… or I want them not to concern me, because I don’t like dealing with them. It concerns me when I pay my rent, because I made a decision for myself that I don’t want to own property. It concerns me when I look at my phone and compare prices, because it’s actually pretty funny, Yasemin, that when I want to book a trip and do it on an iPhone, I get shown more expensive prices than on a different phone. I heard that from Marktkauf, they mentioned it at some point. And I realize for myself, it really is so incredibly important to engage with this. And then I immediately thought, well, but regulation, and “those up there,” and then you’re right back there again. And can we even do anything about it? Yes, maybe this monopoly that Lieferando has. Because of course it’s nice when I get cheap groceries, but it would also be nice if I could look at other services sometimes. So I can order something that’s maybe not always in the same endless loop, which doesn’t mean these businesses are bad. So let me shorten this — I think we just need to engage with this. I thought internally about who needs to exert what kind of influence. I also only like regulations to a certain extent. I also don’t want things imposed on us about what we’re allowed and not allowed to do. But I notice that it affects people themselves. And then it affects social aspects too, like housing, like food production. And I do think we should all pay attention to this, because, what did we say, education, we always come back to that. Information is, I think, the key to understanding it. I don’t know if we can then fully navigate it, but we understand it first at least.
Yes, thank you so much, and let’s move into the closing round with that, because I actually get to wrap up right on time today, so we can get back on the road right away, and the guys are waiting outside, so to speak, having a drink, eating something, I don’t know, waiting for us to continue our trip. So I’d like to invite Marc, Jürgen, Layla, to briefly share a highlight or closing word for today. Marc.
I just want to briefly note, Lieferando doesn’t make ordering cheaper, it makes it more expensive. That’s important to me. Lieferando takes 30 percent from every participant per order. They don’t make anything themselves. Just because they invented Lieferando, they get 30 percent. What Lieferando did was a market entry, and Lieferando’s market power comes from its brand recognition, just like with many other companies. And that’s what makes this whole thing so fascinating. And the response to that, for individual participants — my trusted delivery partner did this, for example, he distributed his own email address and so on, and talks to customers, educates customers, and they order directly from me too. But Lieferando’s market power lies in the fact that it has a high level of brand recognition, and people order through Lieferando, and those who actually do the work, and that’s true in a lot of processes, the value chain doesn’t happen at Lieferando, they just collect 30 percent every time for the idea. That was my closing word. I wish you all a good start to the week. And to you, dear Yasemin, I always wish a handful of charge left in the car battery.
Wonderful, thank you so much, dear Marc. Jürgen?
My highlight from today’s stage is clearly what you said, dear Yasemin — the sheer dimension of this topic. And I’d be the one pushing forward if we split this into sub-areas, and picked up all these adjacent, or closely related, fields of today’s topic, because they essentially concern all of us at our core — we’re all Homo economicus, so to speak. And I’d like to leave you with just one number, on the scale of a powerful market participant today. It’s come up a few times already, this asset manager BlackRock. Just take a moment to really internalize this when we talk about power. BlackRock currently manages 10 trillion dollars in assets, and positions this accumulated wealth in various holdings, worldwide holdings. The largest of these is Apple, with roughly 170 to 180 billion. I think, at this scale, without going deeper, you can imagine how such a concentration of financial resources is capable of determining not just companies, but entire markets — in this case the markets for investment and for innovation. But let me leave it at that for now. I wish you a good trip, dear Yasemin, and everyone else a lovely day. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, dear Jürgen. Layla.
Yes, I realized my highlight was simply that, now that I thought about delivery services, I also considered, ah yes, the economy has power. Marketing by now has a whole lot of power too. Visibility seems to be really, really powerful. And yes, you have to think about who you make visible, and how you make them visible. And I think if you have economic interests, or your own interests, you should get yourself some good marketing. That was really it for me today. Thank you so much.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. And there are so many different components coming together here. I also found it exciting that Marc opened up this morning with the corresponding network, and now you’re bringing up marketing — so there are various components playing a role here, in any case, that can have a positive or a negative impact in one direction or another. And here too, it’s not just one thing or the other, but really massive entanglements, which, if you look more closely, might not be visible at first glance, but become clear, and comprehensible, once you dive deeper into the topics. So really, really fascinating here too. Let’s see if we can pick up one thing or another again elsewhere — it’s really a huge topic. And at the same time it’s important to keep trying to break it down, make it small, bite-sized, in order to then re-establish the overall context, to try to break down the complexities, so to speak. It doesn’t always sound like this, not in every room, but today it was really, really noticeable, I think, that there’s massive complexity behind the question that ChatGPT formulated for us here. But I also think it’s a lovely insight from the room, to begin with. And one thing or another can be derived from that accordingly. Tomorrow we continue with violence in literature — how does violence show up in literature, and what can we learn from violent themes in books — that’s the question we’ll explore tomorrow. So you’re all very warmly invited to join us again tomorrow. And yes, let’s see where we make another stop along the way, so we can be back on air with you together at 8am. I’m really looking forward to it in any case. Until then, take care. Ciao!
