Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: How does power and violence show up through and in music, or the music industry? That’s the question we explore in Room #932 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme of “Power & Violence.” Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…
Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.
A very warm good morning to you all. So, with a noticeable delay today, and originally I’d thought that today everything would run in its usual channels again. But that’s how it goes sometimes — the best-laid plans don’t always work out. So we arrived with a considerable delay, basically just walked through the door, and didn’t really have much chance to set up the tech or anything like that, so I stumbled straight into this room. A very quick hello to my in-laws, and off we go into Deep Talk. The rest will have to be shifted to later. So, sorry about that — what we did manage was to push the room back by half an hour, so you’d at least have an idea and know what’s going on. And with that, let’s go ahead and dive straight into today’s topic: the power of music, or the music industry. How does power and violence show up through and in the music industry? That’s the question we want to look at today. And since we started later, we’ll have somewhat less time to talk about the topic today. Let’s see if we can get through it reasonably well in a good 30 minutes. So you’re all very warmly invited, right from the start, not to let any more time pass, but to jump in and bring in different aspects — whatever impulses you have first on this topic — so that through the exchange we can step straight into reflection, open up perspectives, and see together how the room develops. And with that, feel free to join in, so we have the chance to open up different perspectives and talk about them. And Marc is already joining, I’m so glad. Dear Marc, a very warm good morning.
Good morning to the round. Yes, normally I wanted to steer clear of this topic, because my research only turned up sexualized violence, over and over, so not exactly pleasant material. And I’d like to start the topic differently instead. Namely, the title is “The Power of the Music Industry.” And what I always ask myself is: the power of the music industry — what does that actually do to the artist first? So, let’s first turn our attention to something beautiful. I’d like to share an experience with you. Last year, for the first time in many, many years, I went to a concert again — an Udo Lindenberg concert in Hanover. I knew him, of course. He was one of the few people who accompanied me since my youth. He wasn’t necessarily the artist whose LPs or records I currently buy, but I just wanted to go see an artist together with my family. I’ve missed so many artists, and I wanted to at least take this one in as a nice memory. And of course I asked myself — the same thing I ask myself about Mick Jagger — what drives these people, when they presumably have more than enough money, to still do this at, I don’t know how old he is, 73, and I hope, if there are any Udo Lindenberg fans here, that I got that right, but at least an age where I was really impressed that someone still pulls off a show that lasted, I think, two hours. And then I experienced — nowadays you don’t have candles anymore, nowadays you have phones — and it was such a wonderful experience, when tens of thousands of people hold up their phones and cheer for the star, and you see these flashes of light, and I said to myself, well, money surely isn’t the driving force here, and the topic is the power of the music industry. And I thought, how powerful must that feel, how intoxicating must that feel, to stand on a stage where tens of thousands of people are cheering for you. If I were the star, they’d be cheering for me. That feeling can’t be replaced by anything — not even by looking at my bank account — because it’s live, it tingles everywhere. And I can imagine that this power, this incredible feeling of sharing that, this closeness to the audience, keeps driving artists to still get up on a stage at 80, and that money can no longer be the sole motivator, even though you keep hearing about stars, German stars too, who reappear out of obscurity after a while because they’d lived beyond their means, because they’d blown through their finances, and so on. But this, first of all, just for the artist alone, so that later, when we get to other topics, we can internalize what this does to someone — that it’s an intoxicating feeling, and once you’re used to it over years, people cheering for you, experiencing that up front on the stage, it keeps driving you to seek that out again, to have that experience once more. Because you can’t recreate that on a video. In my opinion, that only works live.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. And here we already have an emotional aspect built in, which you brought up. And then the question is whether that’s the power of music at this point, or whether it’s this experience on stage, this contact with the fans, that’s simultaneously bound up with these emotions. And that makes it clear that the power of music, as a term, can carry quite different meanings here. On one hand, there’s the term we’ve kept opening up over the past days and weeks, in the sense of power and violence, more in the direction of exerting influence and so on. And on the other hand, there’s the power of music here as, I’d say, almost a play on words, maybe with a different connotation — something you could perhaps also call the force of music, or the strength of the relationship with your own fans, if we pick up the example you brought in. Then the term “power” takes on a completely different meaning in that context. So that’s worth differentiating here too. And what’s totally fascinating about this aspect of the power of music is, if we were to take it in the direction of exerting influence without, say, the will of a counterpart, the question arises in that context too: is there even such a thing as the power of music, or the music industry? And with both, you’d of course have to look again, similar to the aspects of economy and so on, at what exactly is behind it — because it isn’t power in itself, but rather looking at which people, and we’ve already had this in other rooms, stand behind it with various interests. I’m really curious to look at that further, and Ria has raised her hand too. I’m curious what further points Ria will bring in.
A very warm good morning to you all. I hadn’t even read the subtitle in brackets at first, and I immediately had associations with “the power of music.” I know pretty much for certain, for example, that music is used in shops to deliberately slow people down as they walk and get them to stay longer. I know that music holds an enormous power for me. I can — I don’t know if anyone else remembers this, but I think it was such a collective experience — when the Twin Towers collapsed, shortly afterward, even though this song already existed, Enya’s song came out, and the images kept being played alongside it. And to this day, whenever I hear that song — and I liked Enya’s music a lot — whenever I hear that one song, I still see the images in front of me, and music is very, very closely tied to emotions for me. I have certain songs tied to certain situations in my own life, and when those songs pop up, I’m back in that situation, I can slip back into it without any trouble. I get goosebumps again, or I get that happy or sad feeling again, and I immediately have the images inside me again, and I find that fascinating. At the same time, I know you can also manipulate people very, very strongly with it. At our school too — and I know this is always very important for communities — we have an anthem. This anthem only has to do with our school, and the lyrics are completely incomprehensible and unclear to outsiders, but after more than 100 years of the school’s existence — the anthem itself has probably existed for 50 or 60 years — we sing it every time, we sang it again this time at the graduation ceremonies for the diplomas, and I found that absolutely brilliant. It’s a very uplifting feeling, because suddenly everyone holds together. Of course it’s very dangerous too — it’s been used in a negative direction many times throughout human history, I know that. But here, music holds an enormous power for me. I just wanted to share that with you. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. And especially in marketing, that’s used very intensively too — sometimes scent notes that you find in certain shops, as well as music, often in combination. All the way to further education too, if you just think of those seminars or huge halls, where music is played to exert a certain influence on the participants, in combination with the content and the activities carried out there, things like movements and so on.
Yes, a very warm good morning, dear Jürgen. What do you say about the topic?
Good morning, dear ones. The first thing I have to say about the topic is that I have to revise myself somewhat, in a certain sense, because I said a while ago that language, speech, is essentially the message of thought. Now, having thought about this a bit, thanks to your contributions, Ria and Marc, this provisional revision comes to mind, where I’d say there’s a point that’s only now become clear to me, one where music distinguishes itself from language. Because with music — and this is quite obvious and by now sufficiently proven — emotions are awakened, and quite specific associations are awakened too. But music also moves the body, and language itself, apart from individual gesture and facial expression, doesn’t do that. So music puts the body into a certain, well, I’ll assume, similarly-toned movement, mood-wise. And there is, dear Yasemin, you can surely back this up better than I can, I’m just relaying this as borrowed knowledge — there’s a direct connection between cognitive processes and physical processes. Many experiments have shown that in some cases the body even runs ahead of the cognitive process. And if I think about this now in relation to our room topic, “the power of music,” then my first thought would be that music has the power to move our body into a very specific emotional form of expression, and therefore, of course, to determine our behavior too. That would be my first point to bring in.
Yes, thank you so much. And that’s actually where I could dig back into the research. I’m not that deep into this music perspective in connection with the brain — that it has an effect is proven. But exactly what contributes to that happening in the background, I’d have to do a bit more homework on that, and maybe pick it up again in one room or another at some point. But I would like to add that it also has something to do with aspects like vibrations, for instance. So the movement isn’t just thought of as something physical or an emotional state, but also as a certain vibration, waves that get set in motion here too. Anyone who’s ever watched a body, even just while singing, will notice that depending on which area someone sings from, it’s either more in the upper part of the breath, or toward the diaphragm, a bit further down into the belly, and depending on which notes are sung — maybe you’ve experienced this in a choir or something — how this vibration, these oscillations, go through the whole body, and that’s something that becomes noticeable, becomes experienceable, and is very, very strongly coupled with these emotions, both in one direction and the other, both positively and negatively. And what Ria described earlier, that’s definitely in the area that’s called anchoring in NLP, where through repetition — which is also used very often in marketing — through repetition, a song, though it could also be something else, in the concrete case we were just talking about, with September 11th, it was a song that became directly retrievable through repetition, in a very targeted way. So it’s a kind of conditioning, so to speak, through repetition, so that in the moment you hear the song, in a completely different situation, you immediately have the images in your mind again, because it was simply trained in. We have that in many other contexts too. You can check this for yourselves — maybe a romantic relationship, a friendship, something you experienced on vacation or similar, where you maybe kept hearing certain songs, and then it’s not just an earworm, so to speak, but so anchored that even years later you only need a few notes, a few short sequences from the song, and immediately the inner images are there too, as if the connection gets re-established.
Marc, Jürgen, would you like to pick up on that?
Yes, gladly, Marc. Dear Ria, you’ve opened up an incredible number of thoughts and windows in my head, and when you mentioned the anthem, sports immediately came to my mind — the power of music in sports. I have no idea, I’m really no sports expert, but I immediately pictured Henry Maske, when he did one of his last fights with the Vangelis music — the songs played automatically in my head. When I think of soccer, I’m no expert there either, but I somehow connect it with the song “Football’s Coming Home” and so on. So music can relax you, and music is also used in therapy, since music speaks to our feelings, music is also used in therapy. Especially with Alzheimer’s patients, who, even though they’ve forgotten a lot, still actually remember the songs they used to listen to. And if music can relax you, then of course music can also do the opposite. Music can also make you aggressive. I’ve noticed that myself in the car. Depending on what kind of music is playing, it affects my driving — I really have to watch out that when I put on certain music, I tell myself, watch out now, this could lead to that point, because music relaxes too much, puts you in a good mood and in high spirits, and makes you overly exuberant. And a really interesting experience a restaurant manager once shared with us — we were out for dinner one evening and noticed that the music was a bit louder than usual. And we told him, we’ve never noticed that before, could it be that today’s music is a bit louder? And he said, laughing, yes, it’s deliberately louder, because the music is meant to keep guests from staying too long. Those were certain peak times. If the music is too quiet, the guests get too relaxed. They order something, they eat, and then they sit there for hours. I interpret it this way — I saw it on his face, so he didn’t say it outright — but if I sit an hour and a half after dinner and occupy the table, the table can’t be sold again. And with slightly louder music, it’s a bit more uncomfortable, and it nudges the guests to leave afterward. And at certain times, it’s important to free up the table again as quickly as possible. Music helps with that too.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. A lovely example, I think. Jürgen, would you like to pick up on this too?
Yes, maybe with a personal statement about the effect of music. When I’m approaching a mountain and want to climb it, my preferred choice in the car on the drive there is AC/DC, and I swing myself, so to speak, through their basic rhythm — really, I’m grateful this room brought this to mind for me today — because I really swing myself into a sequence that almost, exactly, I can relate to that, tunes in to roughly the frequency I prefer at the mountain, and that’s a ritual I have. Otherwise, I don’t usually choose AC/DC in other situations. But that’s significant, it comes to me here. Thank you, dear Marc, your contribution is actually what got me there. And it confirms me in this statement, where I’d say, what power — that’s the power. Sweeping the body along, tuning the body into an emotional stance that I either already have or want to have. That is, in a sense, the power of music for me so far.
Yes, wonderful, thank you all so, so much. I find that some really lovely memories of your own came up too, at one point or another, through the concrete examples that were brought in, and then these further-reaching impulses, this checking-in with yourself, what experiences have I actually had with music, where do I encounter this, and how does that affect, you could say at this point, mind, body, and soul, and in which direction can that be used, in quotation marks, for steering, quite consciously and deliberately. So not just when we’re simply, so to speak, “beneficiaries” of music, but also quite deliberately, for example in certain activities, in goal-setting, in sporting activities and so on, this can certainly be used very, very consciously by ourselves in the sense of self-efficacy. Especially with aspects like anchoring — through conditioning, through repetition — consciously choosing something for yourself here, to say, I’d like to deliberately connect this with something specific, bring it into harmony, so that through repetition, over time, something very specific gets achieved and brought into connection with it. So here too, in the sense of self-efficacy, we have the opportunity to consciously set aspects and frameworks ourselves, as to where we want to use the power of music for ourselves too.
Jürgen, go ahead.
I just wanted to ask whether we still have time, because we’ve now talked about the power of music, about the first part, but the power of the music industry — if I remember correctly, that hasn’t been a topic so far. That means, the industry that apparently turns this power — which music is capable of instilling in each of us — into a profitable business model. Or am I seeing that wrong?
Yes, absolutely, exactly. And we can gladly — since we started half an hour, an hour later, so to speak — now run half an hour longer, to make up that time. But we can gladly pick up this second part now too, because I think, and that’s why this differentiation between music and the music industry was quite deliberately included through the parenthesis in the title and the subheadline as well. That’s about this second part, namely how this industry makes use of it. And we can gladly take a look at that too. I think we’ll get to a few valuable aspects fairly quickly there too, which can then be taken along afterward to keep working on, so everyone can check in with themselves on this at one point or another. Jürgen, you’ve already started on this point — let’s continue right there, gladly, if you’d like.
Yes, that follows on logically. What do we actually see falling under this industry? What all belongs to it? Because I keep coming back to the same theme — if power relations arise from this, and we’re talking, for example, about the industry of record producers on one side, and the industry that markets music on the other. Those are different industries, and the question for me is, what specific power does each of these individual industries have? Are they different, or are they perhaps even the same in their aim? And above all, what instrument do they make use of? Is an artist, for example, nothing other than an instrument of this industry, this power-industry? That’s the question for me. I’ll stay at the level of the question here, because I have no expertise in this at all. I just wanted to put that forward as an initial look at industry. Thank you.
I think those are great questions. Exactly, that’s what it’s about. It’s not about having already settled, in the sense of thinking about the music industry, what falls under that for me or something like that, but rather about raising exactly these questions and making them clear. Yes, so here too we can think in different directions. And I found it especially interesting, the last point you raised, with what instrument do they make use of. And then also to look from the perspective of, what about the artist — doesn’t he also make use of an instrument himself at this point, for example to reach listeners, to generate money from it, and so on. And I think we already touched on this a bit in one of the rooms, in the innovation topics, in the “pioneering spirit with brains” context, we also had aspects like copyright and so on. Those play a role here too, for example. Then there are all the contracts artists enter into with record labels, with managers they have, who maybe manage and organize the whole thing, where and when which performance takes place, the tours. We’re in this event-organizing level of the industry there too. So there are quite a lot of facets we can actually open up here. Marc, do you have further aspects you’d like to bring in?
Yes, I have further aspects, and namely I was interested — I won’t name any names here, because we’re all fans and I simply don’t talk about people that way, but the artists are all well known to us — I read a really interesting article in a newspaper by a psychologist, who first pointed out, another side of violence, namely the violence that comes from the artist, who also belongs to the music industry. There used to be serenading, where people down on the street would sing up to a window. And this singing serves a courtship ritual too. And what’s changed today is that rock musicians — today you don’t sing from below up to a window anymore, but rock musicians stand on a stage and sing down from above. And what I found interesting there was to pay attention to the psychology. This masculinity, deliberately put on display by some stars, from the hip-hop scene as well as the rock scene, and these female fans screaming down below, and this exaggerated display of masculinity, can also lead — I’m being very careful here, I don’t want to generalize — but it can also lead to fantasies of omnipotence, that this leads to arrogance, and why I actually didn’t want to be the first to speak up on this topic today is because the first thing that came to my mind about the power of the music industry was, in fact, sexualized violence, where stars became abusive, and you’d all know them, there’s a whole series of stars who’ve also become notorious, not only violence against women, but also violence against children, and now let me swing back around to the power of the music industry. This editor pointed out that record companies and artist agencies partly tried — I won’t say to cover up exactly — but also, from a legal standpoint, artists were prosecuted more often for having a gram of hash on them than for these offenses. And that’s apparently changed, so this is just what I’ve read, please, this doesn’t have to be factually correct. I just read that the #MeToo movement has also led to cases now being brought that go back an extremely long time, because awareness has changed. And that’s also an important and rather ugly side note of the music industry, one we also see in sports and in many other things, including politics. That means, when someone is powerful and has a large fan base, they can of course also exploit that power. And a lot of people bask in the glow of that power too and hope to gain something from the powerful person. We already touched on that with the topic of radiance, which we’re also using today in a different context with our personal brand. And I found it a really interesting aspect too, that a power also emanates from the artist himself, one he exercises over his fans.
Yes, thank you so much. And here maybe to differentiate again, because we’ve established this elsewhere too — it’s not, per se, the music or something like that that exercises a certain power or anything else, or violence or whatever, but ultimately, just as with technologies, where we established this, the problem and also the solution is always the human being. That means, this has very, very much to do with actors who make use of something, so to speak, and whether that’s a status, whether it’s a position, whether it’s hierarchies, in whatever context we’re looking at here. We could open up something similar in the film industry, for example. So it doesn’t per se have anything to do with music as such, but rather, wherever people act, are in interactions, there’s always, both with power and with violence, the positive as well as the negative sides, which initially have nothing to do, so to speak, with the “subject” we’re looking at, in this case music. And what I also found interesting, because the aspect of rituals came up again, is that in the chat we have a contribution, that before industrialization, music was the sound of cultures and conditions, without marketing. With marketing, this connection to music is no longer there. That brought another thought to me — I mentioned the choir earlier, so if we think again in the direction of rituals and so on, music has also often been used, and this has been the case historically for a very, very long time, classically in religion, for example, going to church, just to name one example among many. We can observe this not only in Christian religions, but in other religions too, where music gets incorporated to practice a ritual. That can take the form of a choir, or in Islam, for example, the call to prayer, where even in the call to prayer there’s a certain tonality, almost like a kind of melody. I remember in the past being asked countless times by children who didn’t know this yet, what that man was actually singing. Children can’t place it at first, that it has something to do with faith or is connected to it in this context. So certain rituals that come along with it, historically speaking too, also to establish routines — routines like going to church, and maybe with a certain fun factor too. That’s more the modern version, when you think of gospel or something like that, especially in the USA, that’s where I know it particularly from. I don’t know where else it exists in that form. If you’ve really experienced it intensely even once, you do ask yourself, is that, well, it’s beautiful in a way, and at the same time the question is, is that what you’d normally associate with church, faith, and so on, or is it also totally interesting, in marketing terms basically, how that too gets used as an instrument, to bring in this fun factor, to bring religion, or what’s being preached, closer to people again. I find that totally fascinating in this context too, thinking again in the direction of rituals and routines, cultures and so on, and religions. Would you like to pick up on this too, Marc, Jürgen, or on what was said by the others in the meantime?
There’s one more thing I’d like to bring up, sorry if I don’t get to the last point for now, about the rituals, because I think that’s again a specific feature of the power of music itself, detached from the performer. But I’d like to go back in particular to what was said about this entanglement between the performer and the music, and I logically asked myself, if we’re talking about industry, what actually is the product of this industry? Is it the music, is it the genre of music, or is it rather the performer? Or is it an essential link between the music, the genre of the music, and one very specific performer? I’m thinking, for example, of Elvis Presley, rock ‘n’ roll. And then the question for me immediately is, if the artist is no longer alive, or if you say the power of an industry is based on the marketing of one very specific artist, that through his image, his demeanor, combined with the music, he triggers a very specific emotional effect, and ultimately leads to profit for the industry — if this artist no longer exists, in most cases the music doesn’t die because of it. Certain genres do die out. But for me the counterpart is clearly classical music, which has very many followers, where most people can’t tell whether a particular classical piece is by Mozart or by Bach or by Verdi or the like. But the music continues to exist and continues to evoke emotion. So it seems the music itself must be the product, and not the performer. That’s this mental connection I made again for myself with regard to the power of an industry, because against this background, as an industry, as an entrepreneur, I have to decide on my strategy — do I align it with the artist, or do I align it with the music, or do I create a connection, a very clear connection and identification of this music with this artist, even under the risk that if the artist no longer exists, this product dies. That was another thought of mine on the topic of the power of the industry. Thank you for listening.
Yes, that’s totally fascinating, and the aspect that comes to my mind again in this context is, you’ve surely heard of this — I don’t remember which artist it was — there was an experiment where someone very well known, who also earns a lot of money in that field, played a bit of music on a street corner. And they simply watched what happened, and it was incredible how much someone gives, depending on whether the person is recognized or not in that context, and only in one case was there a “sizable sum” that was still relatively little compared to what he normally gets for a concert like that. In that case he was then recognized, so to speak, and there was a bit more money given, in quotation marks. But those are a lot of components that play a role in an experiment like that. So, is it the performer, is it the artist, does the music outlast them, and now further components come into play too. If we pick up the example you brought in, Jürgen, we had in the past — if we think about it — with classical music or so, let’s call them, in quotation marks, pure musical instruments, which also come into play there, things like piano, recorder, whatever instrument is used. Now, in the modern world, we increasingly have mixtures too, where it’s no longer purely the sound, so to speak, but perhaps a lot with — especially if we look at this from the perspective of technology — further aspects come in here too, where, compared to before, almost everyone is now able, in quotation marks, to create music. Now, that of course lies in the eye of the beholder — that means people could probably argue for ages about whether that’s music or not. And that’s also debated among artists, for example, whether that falls under performing arts, whether that falls in the context of music, and what gets conveyed and expressed through music. So further components come into play here too, and further questions could be raised, whether it makes a difference, for example, whether it’s what I’ll call this pure sound form, really produced with instruments, or whether it’s perhaps electronic aspects that provide the rhythm and so on, bringing in the beat, but perhaps in terms of presentation are something completely different from what classical music, for example, would represent. Are there perhaps other examples of enduring beyond the death of the artist? Or are those only very specific areas? So here you’d actually have to go back into observation, to maybe get ideas for yourself, or to be able to derive insights from it too. What do you two say to that, Marc, Jürgen?
So, for me the room was important again — before I went into the room, I really said to myself, influenced by the media, in recent times music has kept getting connected with sexualized violence, because then music, then people go after the artist, go after the music industry, and that would then also be my closing word, dear Yasemin, for the room, for me. It made clear to me again, personally, for Marc, that music makes me laugh and cry, and music connects people and leaves strong feelings in me. And I call out to you — I hope I’m pronouncing it right — güzel, safe travels, and I wish you a wonderful day in Turkey. Thank you for the wonderful room, dear Yasemin.
Yes, wonderful, thank you all so, so much. Then let’s use that to kick off the closing round. Jürgen, would you like to follow up here too?
I’m speechless at Marc’s eloquence, I can only put it in my own words. Enjoy your vacation, dear Yasemin. And I know you’ll be present again tomorrow too. And that’s a very reassuring lead-in to the weekend, which I wish for everyone as a pleasant and beautiful one. Thank you for this room, and hopefully see you tomorrow. Ciao, take care.
Yes, wonderful, thank you all so, so much. Yes, after the considerable delay we started with today, I still think this turned out to be a really nice, successful room with a lot of different perspectives, which above all invite further observation, so everyone can derive things further for themselves. It’s nice that one connotation or another, which may have come about through media influence, could be, let’s call it, corrected in quotation marks, so we’ve neutralized things a bit in that sense too. I always find that important too. And that’s what these rooms are for too, so to speak, to take the emotion back out of things, in order to then open up different perspectives. And that has a neutralizing effect too. And that’s where we are with this emotional regulation and reframing, which always keep happening, and which are always important too, so we can approach topics from different perspectives. So I’m really happy about that. I’m really looking forward to tomorrow’s room. We’ll continue then with violence against the environment, so we’ll have this environmental aspect in view too. The question we’ll deal with is, how do we exercise power and violence on our planet? And then on Sunday we’ll continue with the digital campfire. There were various aspects that came up in the different rooms that I’d like to pick up again, and within the digital campfire, under the overarching theme of power and violence as part two, bring in personal experiences again too, to set further impulses building on that, and to come together again in exchange, so that one thing or another we brought into the rooms can also be put to the “test” again. So here too, opening up different perspectives again, to offer the chance to generate broader, other, new insights here too. So, exactly. With that, I’m looking forward to the weekend with you, and I wish you all a truly wonderful day, and see you tomorrow, or at the latest the day after, I hope. Until then. Ciao. Ciao.
