Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: How does reflection foster our personal growth? Marc and Jürgen join Dr. Yasemin Yazan to untangle growth from development, borrowing a surprisingly useful distinction from economics, and to explore why the willingness to change — not the reflection technique itself — is what actually matters…
Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.
A very good morning to you all. Today we’re continuing with reflection and personal development, and want to engage with the question of how reflection influences, or also fosters, our personal growth. So you’re all very warmly invited again this morning to join in and get into the exchange with your first impulses and thoughts on this. Gladly with concrete examples too, so we can look together at opening the reflection room in dialogue, and through the various impulses and thoughts, simply see what direction the room develops in today. And another quick note that we record the room the entire 60 minutes today too, and that it will be published later. That means anyone who joins automatically agrees that the whole thing gets published. And we have three small room rules: a profile picture you can be clearly recognized by, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. Anyone who doesn’t want that for whatever reason can of course use the chat, so we can check in on that in between and pick up on one thing or another. So, with that, I’ll mute myself for now and see who’d like to start the round with me this morning on the topic of reflection and personal development — how does reflection foster our personal growth.
A very good morning, dear Marc. What do you say on the topic? Good morning, everyone. I’d like to start with two or three words we already had in the room yesterday, because I think these words will accompany us several more times on this topic, and because I became aware myself of how important it is to deliberately, as I learned from Jürgen too, look at the meaning of words. And for me, reflection — and I’ll repeat this because it’s really important and makes the difference — between thinking, thinking things over, and gathering information. Reflection, for me, is examining thought. And this examining thought — our topic being how this helps us with personal development — this examining thought first helped me understand myself better. Because, now the second word that keeps coming in here, we’re human beings. And what connects all of us, what every one of us has, are feelings. And these feelings can be so strong that in certain situations they trigger behavior patterns in us that we don’t think about, because we’re simply overwhelmed by these feelings, so that each of us has a ritual for how we react to certain situations. And this reflection, this examining thought, hasn’t just led me to become aware of whether I want to be the plaything of my feelings going forward. And I’m deliberately not using the word “control” over my feelings, because I don’t really like that word, but I became aware that there were so many situations where I was the plaything of my feelings. And where my feelings controlled me, and I wasn’t clear, meaning I hadn’t reflected on what was happening to me. And through this emotional behavior, through this automatism I hadn’t thought about, which was just there — I sometimes, in hindsight, came to situations I could have handled better or more solution-oriented. That would be my opening remark for now.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. So on one hand it helps you understand yourself better. Then the aspect of feelings, which you also brought in, in connection with behavior patterns too. So being able to check, recognize, behavior patterns, for example, and not be the plaything of feelings. And there we’re back at this aspect of self-efficacy. Now the question arises for me again — let’s look at this more closely — what does personal development and personal growth actually mean? Because these might be very individual terms too. That means, if we say, to what extent does reflection foster personal development or personal growth, then the question arises, what do we even define as that in the first place? So when does personal growth or personal development actually take place, from your perspective? Maybe that’s quite exciting too, to first direct our view there, and then look at what influence reflection exerts in this context. What exactly does it support? Marc?
I have to admit, I deliberately never engaged with that word, because I always saw growth as an entrepreneur — growth in the sense of me growing, my company getting bigger, or being financially better off. And for me personally, growth — I’ve never really needed the word growth for myself. I prefer to use the word personal development for myself, and not growth. And I have trouble with certain words when you say, what’s it good for. Sure, you don’t have to grow. I’ve always personally had issues with certain words that get thrown at you, because no one has to grow. I’ve always asked myself, what’s it good for? And with that term I can do more for myself. What’s it good for, to engage with reflection? And growth, for me, was good, because — and I’ll also tell the example from yesterday again in a moment — this reflection has helped me lead a happy relationship for nine years now, with which I’ve also grown, because it’s totally harmonious for me. This exchange takes me further with my partner. I get new thoughts, I can discuss, I get new impulses and so on. Whether you need that is such an individual decision. There are also people who get along wonderfully on their own, who don’t need anyone at all. But that’s why, for me, the question would rather be, what’s it good for? And I personally don’t define that for myself with my own growth, but simply with what’s good for me, both in the relationship and professionally, and of course always in reflection now too — what’s good for the other person? Because that was also something I reflected on, especially regarding relationships. I first looked at what’s good for me, and I could answer that precisely. Only the challenge is, we’re always two people. As soon as another person comes into it, we’re always two. And if I only reflect on what’s good for me, then the other person also plays a big role in that, both privately and professionally. And if I don’t manage to reflect, meaning also put myself in the other person’s shoes sometimes, think about my communication patterns, to minimize misunderstandings and so on, and to build trust, then it doesn’t help if I’m only aware of what I want, because the other person, in this democracy, so to speak, also has a say.
Yes, thank you so much. I had to smile a bit, because of the association you have with growth. And it’s quite exciting, and it fits this room too — we’re back at this point, how do we associate certain terms, what do we associate with them? And that of course, so to speak, immediately does something to us too. And you’re trying to use a different term for it, because exactly with this aspect of growth, which is obviously, through market language, let’s call it that, always about higher, better, faster and so on, more money and so on, there’s obviously an association connected with it that doesn’t land so positively with you. And in this context you rather spoke of personal development. And development, though, ultimately also has something to do with growth, just that we’re labeling it with a different term, so to speak. And above all I’d like to bring in something else to think about too. Nature, and humans belong to nature, essentially consists of growth per se. That means, from minute one, when we come into the world, the whole thing already starts quite intensely, or of course already in the womb, because of cell formation and so on. But if we really think about it, growth basically takes place over the entire course of life. Whether that’s cell growth, division, and so on, reproduction, and then growth in the sense of a baby, now thinking of size, growth — some become 1.60 meters tall, others almost 2 meters. All the way to reproduction, maybe thought of in terms of family too. Reproduction plays a really big role and is also brought into line with growth. But also, when we think about neural pathways — we’ve talked about this in various contexts before, that brain training, so to speak, also contributes, meaning when we engage with different topics and such, that the networks, the neural networks, actually grow endings and form new connections. So, from various perspectives, I’ve just picked up examples showing that growth really does play a really essential role in our lives. And maybe that helps, so to speak, at this point too, to neutralize one thing or another a bit, from the associations that were awakened first by the term alone. Would you like to follow up here, Marc?
I’m laughing too, Yasemin, that’s exactly the point. And that brings us to the perspective shift. And I sometimes tell a bit of my story here — I sought out a coach when I realized there was a time when, more or less, I’d moved out of my house, things weren’t going well in the relationship, and professionally it wasn’t going well either, and things with my son weren’t going well either. And then I found a coach, and if he had said to me, I’ll help you grow personally, I would have left the coffee sitting there right then, turned around, and left, and said, look, I have completely different problems, I’m not thinking about that right now, I don’t currently know where front and back are. I don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel, I don’t know anything right now, and you want to help me grow personally? I’m curious about that. And this perspective shift, basically, he didn’t say anything different than what you said. He just addressed it for me differently back then, and that’s important too, that the message always has to reach the recipient. He asked me the simple question, how do you feel? Are you satisfied with all the things currently occupying you? Are you satisfied with your relationship? Are you super satisfied with your professional situation, and are you satisfied with your success? Simply a clear answer, yes or no. If I had said yes, I would have gotten up and left, then a further conversation wouldn’t have made sense, then the other person would have gotten up too. I congratulate you, everything seems to be running super optimally. You simply don’t need me. I wish you continued success. But that wasn’t the case. I could answer every question with no. And then admitting that to myself, so getting to know myself better, why it came to this, and making my perspective shift — that it’s not evil forces, that I haven’t conspired companies against myself, nor bosses, nor that all women are evil, nor that some dark forces are working against me, but really having the willingness — and that’s the first point of reflection for me — having the willingness to want to change something. Because it doesn’t help me if someone, out of their fountain of knowledge, says, this is how it could go, or let me tell you something. Instead, for me it was the point where I thought, I’m going to do everything now, and I’m going to reflect too. If that’s the way I get further, I’ve tried everything, nothing worked, then I’ll reflect. And this reflecting then leads to new truths, which aren’t always pleasant, because you’re also taking new streets and new paths, and you also have to be honest with yourself. So honesty plays a big role there, and if you’re willing to be honest with yourself, and willing to take new paths, and willing — dear Jürgen, what you brought in yesterday — to make a perspective shift, then, through reflection, through examining thought, I really get presented with a completely new world.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and Jürgen has joined too, so let’s bring him in directly. A very good morning, dear Jürgen, what do you say to that?
Sorry, a very good morning, dear Yasemin, dear Marc, and everyone in the room. Maybe I can offer some help to agree on what we, or if we make a distinction, in what we make a distinction between growth and development — namely from economics, from economic sciences. There it’s relatively clear. Best example, if you read a business report, say from a public company or a corporation, there’s a clearly different statement made about these two components, namely, under growth, the documentation of growth is always backed up with numbers. So with quantitative, objectively traceable facts. So revenue rose by 20 percent, profit declined by three percent, and so on. Those are — and I’m now speaking quite deliberately about economic components and statements — those are numbers-based, traceably fact-based components. That’s growth. When it then goes into the documentation and explanation of development, it goes into the qualitative area. So no longer the quantitative, but the qualitative area. That means, and here comes the close connection between these two terms, that this numerical growth then often gets labeled with quality criteria like satisfactory, good, above average, or not satisfactory, and that always gets filed under the chapters on the company’s development. And maybe that helps us in our discussion too, in the sense of reflecting on, and thinking about, whether that’s also a starting point for our topic. That would be the help I can offer you there. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Marc, what do you say to that?
I have to reflect on that first. I can’t say anything about that so quickly yet. Thanks so much for your contribution first, dear Jürgen.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Well, the question naturally arises here, to what extent one can actually pick that up — you can certainly pick up this differentiation, and it’s definitely something that can at least be directional, to think in a certain direction. The question, of course, is also now, with this aspect, because you said, especially in this qualitative area, with development, it often gets labeled with satisfactory, good, not satisfactory etc. Here too, it’s probably again showing how individual this ultimately is, because who evaluates that, and how does that then, so to speak, get made measurable in turn, and does it even need to be made measurable at all — now, to transfer or adapt this to our area, does it even need to be made measurable, or is it simply, in our case, personally, a very personal assessment, so to speak, that we make quite individually? Jürgen, would you like to say something more about this qualitative area?
On the qualitative side, in case I forget, remind me and I can say more, but a second trigger just came to me from your remarks, namely maybe also the distinction, to simply ask, what we’ve now defined as reflection — so this conscious, but also partly unconscious, inward view, to take on responsibility and to set goals. Maybe that’s another starting point, to say, what can grow and what can develop? And spontaneously — please take this as a quite spontaneous reflex — growing, in my view, can only be something that’s already there, already present. Developing, in my understanding of the word, is something that really arises out of unfathomable nothingness, though physics is still hard at work considering that no such thing exists. But that might be another starting point too. So, sorry, I’m now answering this position with a second question, and regarding the qualitative component, also relating back to economics, dear Yasemin — the qualitative component is a huge topic, again and again, because basically it demands — now it gets a bit deeper, into the field of descriptive statistics too — a normative, ordinal, or categorical scaling. That means, concretely, that you compare yourself to another comparable, allegedly comparable, company and say, if they grew ten percent and we grew 20, is that good or above average. The room for interpretation there, especially in word choice, is of course always present. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. First, Marc, would you like to follow up here?
Yes, I’d like to ask, thanks, I have a question for you, Jürgen — did I understand that correctly? I just wrote down for myself, and noted, that before growth comes development. So if I now think about a relationship — if I don’t have a relationship yet, but wish for one desperately, I have to reflect on that, I think about how and where that could develop, because there’s nothing there yet. As soon as some form of contact with a person has taken place, however small, I have the possibility to grow, starting from that contact. So I’d specifically ask again, would you also say that development comes before growth?
Correct.
Then my question — a company that already exists can’t develop further, because it already exists. That was deliberately a bit of a trap I was setting. So if I already have a company —
and I call Yasemin and say, don’t you have a way to look with me at whether I can develop my company differently? Then she says, it’s already there. You can only grow now. You can no longer develop. That’s now a provocative thesis, not aimed at the relationship, but at a company.
Let me follow up directly here too, because I had a similar thought, Jürgen. There was a small foreword in there, “further develop.” That means the question would arise whether further development and growing are actually the same, meaning can be used synonymously, while the first, “developing,” would, so to speak, mean a kind of new founding, or letting something new arise, Jürgen.
No, you’ve actually already given the answer, dear Yasemin. A third term comes in, terminology. I’m always in the economic realm, on my connotation level. A third term coming into play is emergence. Emergence is the initial spark. Out of the initial spark, something develops. And dear Marc, if something develops, then — but I think Yasemin already said this — that doesn’t mean the development dies with the development, but rather, you develop further, and that flows into growth. And that’s exactly the point we’re at now. What is to be attributed to the position of development, and what to growth? And there, from my economic perspective, was the distinction that I can say, I have a language component, meaning growth, that I can factually trace, and on the other hand a qualitative component, mind you, from the economic realm. And now it would, I think, be quite interesting to try whether we can transfer that to our reflection contexts. But very importantly, and I found this quite good, to pick up this terminological addition again, dear Yasemin, and I think it fits very well for our topic too, with regard to perception and awareness of the initial, the emergence. Something has to be triggered, there has to be an initial spark, for something to develop, in order to then grow. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Then let’s also look at whether we maybe have a concrete example we can actually pick up now. Maybe also an example from the last few days — we’ve already had various examples, to see whether this can be transferred, whether we can adapt this from this economic context, and check whether we can manage to do that here too. Marc, Jürgen, would you like to follow up here?
I’ll pick up the topic of relationships again, that’s easiest for me, because we’ve all hopefully been in a relationship before. And I can only say from my experience, and I said this, this reflection, changing my communication pattern, helped me lead a happy relationship now. Why? And here’s the best example. When I met my partner, there was also a situation because she really, really loves her job, and for her, her job comes above everything, so there were also situations at the beginning of the relationship where she said, I don’t know yet if we’ll see each other this weekend. And I had this wish for a relationship and couldn’t understand that, because my wish was extremely strong, to see her, because I was totally in love. And now this was the old communication pattern of Marc, and I know exactly where that led, or maybe not the communication pattern, but the thought scheme. Well, maybe she doesn’t love me as much, that would be an accusation. Or, you seem to have other priorities. And then I went into reflection and asked, what are you actually doing here? Why are you doing that? And I came to the answer, for myself, that these are actually just hurt feelings. First, it’s an insinuation, and second, they’re hurt feelings. And if I don’t become master of my feelings now and reflect on them, then, as he said, the development and the growth at that point is already over, because then the other person automatically withdraws. And that’s where I learned to change my communication pattern. Not by saying, neither verbally nor in thought, you seem to have other priorities, or the weekend doesn’t seem so important to you. Those are all just hurt feelings that have no basis whatsoever if you see them from the other person’s perspective shift. Instead, my communication pattern was, even if I wished for something different, “okay, I see you still have a lot to do, that matters to you.” Then just get in touch if you finish earlier after all. Or with the suggestion that you could say, I could, if you like, we might have time for a coffee. That means you don’t come to me, you don’t lose time. And if you see a time window where you take a break and would like a nice coffee, then we’ll have a coffee together, and afterward you can keep working. And I left the other person the option to decide, and didn’t react offended. And that helped this relationship grow. And if I hadn’t reflected, I can say this with certainty, with 100 percent certainty, only this reflection, and only changing my communication pattern, my perspective shift and behavior pattern, led to me now having someone at my side for nine years.
Yes, Jürgen, please go ahead directly.
Thank you, Yasemin, and thank you too for your remarks, dear Marc. I also went in medias res regarding my own past, and arrived at my job. And maybe that’s a starting point for deciding between growth and development. Namely, over many years, I’d write, my personal growth was this competency, this growth in competency regarding project management. Let me take the example of a project manager. And I can pin that down to very specific positions demanded of a project manager. They’re mainly competencies in planning, steering, control, and people management. Those are the four positions, and I think, with increasing experience and also with the will to learn, growth sets in. Growth with regard to very concrete — now we’re back at concrete abilities, skills, and competencies. What ran alongside that, I hope, was personal development, that at some point I realized that, on the basis of this growth, these competencies, I’d built up a personality structure that put me in a position to act, in particular, as an integrator and mediator. Those were, or are, positions that go beyond the explicit competencies demanded of a project leader or project manager, maybe a basis, but not the decisive factor — rather, they’re personality traits that, in my view, develop over time. Which, however, can also grow, but which develop. And I make a clear distinction here with regard to skills and abilities, because it shaped me as a whole person, not just regarding my job. Namely this ability, first to recognize that something has developed, in order to then use it, and not just in the professional environment, but, I hope, in the personal environment too. That would be, for me, a way of backing up, from my personal area, the distinction between where I’ve grown and where I’ve developed. Admittedly, I think it’s still extremely hard to keep those two apart. I think it’s again one of those points where we have to agree on something. Thank you for listening.
Yes, thank you so much. And if we come back to Marc’s example, if we try to transfer that here too, then we could possibly say that this quantitative aspect could be something like, say, fewer conflicts in the relationship. There we’d have this measurability option at that point, over time. And the personality traits that develop here, we could look at, for example, something like empathy ability, which I’d probably include here, that it’s more pronounced through this perspective shift etc. And then another outcome quantity is added, so to speak, namely, derived from that, something like satisfaction or a feeling of happiness. And there we’re back at feelings again, at emotions, so to speak, which I find quite interesting to bring into this context again too, with the result, because with this settled feeling that’s derived from that as an outcome quantity, a certain evaluation is then made too. Especially possibly in this development area at this point. Would anyone else like to add something here? Marc, Jürgen?
Go ahead, Jürgen. I’d even push it further, if you allow me, all the way to recognizing the meaning of life. That at some point I realize this development process has brought me into a completely different position, one I never would have suspected before, but which has developed, and which I accept as what makes me satisfied and happy and gives my life meaning. So I’d absolutely say that, and I say that with full awareness, because today, looking back on my life, let me say this, I can say not only did it make sense, but it was tremendously fun, and I haven’t wasted any time. And I think that was this development. Not the growth in very specific skills and abilities, where you’re permanently in competition with others, to also get this project, but the accompanying development of the personality, which, ultimately, lets you sit in an armchair and say, actually it was quite good, the whole thing.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Marc, would you like to follow up here too?
Yes, back to my example. We always ask ourselves — and I asked myself this too — what’s it good for, if I react emotionally in certain situations, which, in hindsight, is often not factually or logically justified. To stay with my example, if my partner doesn’t come and I just say, you don’t like me that much, or it doesn’t matter that much to you, then that’s purely emotional and not logical at all. And there’s a figure that helps me recognize this again too. And that was — you’ll all know the show — Star Trek. I always think, now you have to do the Spock, just observe clear-sightedly, without feelings. That doesn’t mean becoming an emotionless person. But then I have to laugh at myself, when I think, what would Mr. Spock say about this? Fascinating, how would I evaluate this? So evaluating the situation, taking the emotions out, and then looking at it again, how do I see this now? And then asking myself the question, what’s it good for? Of course I can always let my emotions run free, but asking myself — because you know how people react to very strong emotions, when they’re not factual, but when they go into blame, or worse, into insults, which can lead to even harder confrontations — and then I ask myself, do I like the solution? If I already look ahead at the solution, no, I don’t like that. And that’s why it makes sense for me to have my emotions under control, having now reflected on how I’ll react in future situations, or wish I could react, in order to avoid a result like the one I know from the past.
Yes, thank you so much, and now I’d like to try to close this circle, to come back to the starting point, so to speak, with the question — now that we’ve tried to differentiate this a bit, what is actually the difference, and can it be adapted from the economic context to the personal context here. Then let’s look, if we now say reflection and personal development, or reflection and personal growth — what influence, or to what extent does reflection foster personal development or personal growth, especially with the differentiation we’ve opened up — what results do we arrive at? Does it make a difference whether we speak of personal development or personal growth in this context?
We’d gladly — that’s a really good question, dear Yasemin, which was also going through my head in the last few minutes. If I had needed or wanted to see an interim result after this first half hour, I would have said, we’ve established by consensus that it’s useful for something. Whether it’s clothed linguistically in growth or development, let me say it a bit casually, I don’t really care, but it’s definitely useful for something, and it does something. And for me, that would actually have been the next step, not to keep dwelling further on trying to differentiate between them, but to ask, how can I consciously influence this development, or this growth, through reflection, through an inward view? That would have been, for me, my interim step to this point. But I’m completely on your side — does it even make sense to keep trying, almost compulsively, to keep these two terms apart, which I think will definitely be extremely difficult. Thank you. Marc? Would you like to?
Yes, I agree with that. Reflection also helps us, if we want to grow — I’ll use my own words now — if we reflect on our life or on our future, meaning we want to grow and want to reach our goals, and reaching goals is part of it too, then we’ve already had, several times in this room, that it’s not enough to just have a goal. The goal of, at some point in old age, being able to live with dignity, or the goal of continuing to remain self-determined, and so on and so on. And it’s not enough to just define the goals, but if you ask successful people, who are where I want to be, they always say, I had a vision, and I imagined, what for — and you always repeat that, dear Yasemin, what’s it good for? So reflecting, what’s it good for, that I’m even doing this at all? And then I’m also willing to walk this path. Because if we don’t know what it’s good for, reflection doesn’t help at all, because then reflection at some point becomes just an information intake. And we can’t prevent information from coming at us every day and every minute. But we can decide, is this important information, how do I evaluate it, how do I process it, and what consequence and what result do I draw from this information. Only we decide that.
Thank you so much. Jürgen, would you like to follow up here too, to directly answer the question you put in the room?
Yes, well, I think, personally, I’m really rambling a bit around this terminology, but let me go back to what I noted down, what we defined as reflection, namely in answering the question, what’s reflection actually for? And I noted two positions for myself there. One, on the basis of knowledge, or becoming aware of our strengths and weaknesses through this inward view, achieving a goal fixation, or also goal manifestation. What do I want to achieve? And on the other hand, connected with that, establishing the basis for responsibility too. What position do I take toward responsibility? And there I’d now see a connection, or a dividing line, regarding, on one hand, goals. Goals have to be operational, they have to be traceable, and I can, at some point, say, I’ve reached this goal. Responsibility, well, that requires skills, abilities, and competencies. Defining responsibilities, or not just being able to draw from the toolbox of project management methods, but my own personality. So I’m back at this point, I’m sorry, back to this point, that I’d say, that would be, for me, this trend criterion. On one hand, pure personality, on the other hand, abilities and skills. And based on that, I’d repeat myself now, the question would really arise, what methods, and are these methods possibly different? How do I, through this personal inward view of reflection, quite consciously get to this growth of my skills on one hand, and to the development, rather, of my personality structure on the other.
Yes, thank you so much. I’m just thinking — it’s important to me that we don’t pick up the topic of methods yet at this point. So if we can answer this on the level of looking at this process, gladly. This is really a follow-up question at this point, Jürgen, or whether we’d have to postpone that part to the context where we look at all these aspects like types, forms, settings, and methods, and so on, separately too. Would you like to go into that again?
Gladly. Yes, I said that deliberately. I know you want to address this topic explicitly, and that it’s its own room. And I, as I said, am now at this point to say, let’s, or I’d personally note, I’d even make it clearer, and regarding the process, how all of this runs within us, that I’d say, oh yes, this reflection takes on a really essential component with regard to my — and now I’d say skills and abilities development, but also my personality development. And that especially the latter, through self-reflection, also leads to self-recognition, which is, again, basically the interface toward education, toward learning. And that would be, for me, right now, this result. Maybe that one looks again at this process flow, but I’m relatively open about that. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Marc, would you like to follow up here too?
Dear Jürgen, I’m so grateful for this topic, because I can say from my personal environment, this personality, that’s the key. Personality is the key. And the sticking point I keep observing, and this is totally exciting, is that someone has to be willing to reflect on themselves, meaning to personally engage with themselves. Because I can say now, the answer I hear, or that I hear between the lines — if someone has walked a path for 40 years, and you talk to them about being able to think about their personality, then a perspective shift has to happen. There’s that perspective step again. The wish for a perspective shift has to be there, because if it’s not there, what happens then? There are people whose self-confidence hasn’t grown as much as, say, yours has now, due to your experience and due to the successes you’ve had. And then the following happens with these people — they suddenly question everything, their entire professional path. Then, if they’re negatively predisposed, even more comes to the surface. Then they slip into thinking, I’m a failure, I’m only here and others are much further along. And I’d have to question everything I’ve done so far. And that’s where education comes in, and above all, the simplest first step to get people to even take that step, is the question everyone has to answer for themselves — are you totally satisfied and happy with all the wheels of your life as they currently are? Can you answer everything with a yes? And if he says yes, then everything’s fine. Then he doesn’t need to reflect, because if he thinks he’s happy, even if you see a face like a rainy day, it won’t do any good anyway. But if someone answers a question only with no, and you can then invite them to say — well, at least try, no, that’s already wrong too — you can find a perspective shift interesting, because we are, now, what we are, through our personality. And if someone invites us, or if we ourselves voice the invitation, to think about our personality, then that would be the first step of development and new growth. But primarily, for all things, it’s the personal wish. Without a personal wish, reflection doesn’t help either. Because if I don’t have the wish to adopt a perspective shift, or if I don’t have the wish to see whether there are other perceptions, then we only ever see what we want to see. And that can also be fine, as long as what we see makes us happy and satisfied. Then it’s completely irrelevant what perception we have. What matters to me is always, with every question, establishing for myself, is how I’m living now, privately, professionally, in all areas of life, would I answer that with a top rating? Am I doing well or badly? That’s the starting point for me, to even work on the development and on my personality, and to recognize that at all.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. And I think we can connect further aspects here too. On one hand, it’s the willingness, which you’ve already underlined, that represents an important prerequisite. Then we’ve also had, several times in the reflection topic, differences between conscious and unconscious. That means, bringing in unconscious bias here too, especially with unconscious reflection, which happens “automated,” so to speak, in milliseconds, to make evaluations, for example. That plays a role here too. That means we can’t necessarily always speak of personal growth or personal development if it’s these automated processes happening here, which don’t have anything to do with a conscious steering of the reflection on our part. That’s one thing. It can mean growth, but doesn’t have to. Or it can mean development, but doesn’t have to. So let’s just hold onto that from my view. And with conscious reflection, the question arises — and now we get into this area of unconscious bias again — whether it actually always has to represent a personal development or a personal growth. And here we can look, in the sense of how reflection fosters — because there are different forms, so to speak, of reflection too — how does that even foster it at all? Because if I’m moving within my own bubble and can’t recognize certain things at all, then possibly no personal development or personal growth can be derived from that either. So those are also factors that definitely play a role here. For example, we could distinguish, as different bridges we could build, that it possibly makes a difference whether I go into reflection myself, or whether I get support from outside, for example, to open up further perspectives, for example, through questions that get brought in, that I personally might not have thought of, and similar. Marc, Jürgen, would you like to respond here?
Gladly, Jürgen. I’ll play Marc again, hugging Yasemin. Exactly, because something just occurred to me that I already had on my list but hadn’t brought up, but which is coming up again. So far we’ve only assumed the positive component when it comes to growth. There’s also degressive growth, meaning negative growth, you find that in many business reports too, because growth always suggests something positive, and then the adjective comes before it, meaning degressive, and then it’s not so great. Exactly, and that’s exactly the point, I think, dear Yasemin, that this reflection process doesn’t inherently have to be decisively positive, because exactly due to — if this reflection process, let me put it differently, reinforces existing unconscious bias or heuristics, then that has, well, now we’re of course in the evaluation realm, then that ultimately has a negative effect on personality development, especially in connection with confirmation rituals or processes, which I then also always like to take as further reinforcement of the unconscious bias, along the lines of “see, go on,” when I behave that way. So this aspect we haven’t had yet. Growth can definitely, and I mean through this unconscious bias, go in the other direction too, namely also be negative. Thank you.
Great, thank you so much. And with that we’re opening up a completely different door now, which might also contribute to us getting into the process of understanding here too, and being stimulated to think further. I like to do this with extreme examples, because I find that this often demonstrates the point most vividly. Now we’re at the point where we can pick up examples, like, say, if I take someone who’s extremely right-wing. Then now it becomes clear why I can’t say this person isn’t reflective or whatever, but rather here it becomes clear, based on the examples we’ve just opened up, steered in the positive direction, in the negative direction, and now we’ve said, if unconscious bias kicks in here, so to speak, and serves as an amplifier, as an engine for reinforcing what we already thought anyway, then you see — and now we’re getting into the understanding process — why it’s so difficult to break that open too, because as long as, so to speak, people with, let’s say, extremist thoughts — and I don’t just mean right-wing here, it could also be a completely everyday opinion that we’re totally convinced is just the way it is — now it becomes clear why it’s so difficult to open doors here in exchange, to let new possibilities be seen, so to speak, because that can only happen together, and only in a dialogue, not because the other person is per se somehow stupid, so to speak, not reflective enough, but because they’re so deep in “their bubble,” regardless of whether it’s something extreme or not, they’re convinced of some opinion and don’t see the other side at all. And then we also get into the area of perception here too. It goes so far that I read certain things, and the things I read, I interpret differently, for example, than another person who has a different opinion on this topic. They get the same text and interpret different things into that text, because they see different things against the backdrop of the unconscious bias that’s kicking in, and both are actually reflecting, consciously or unconsciously. And that’s why I find this so important. What do you say to that, Jürgen? Marc?
Go ahead, Marc. I have to go back once more, Yasemin, because you just asked, before Jürgen said something, you asked, is the question, a really important word, is the question important so we can even get into development at all? And I’d like to say, yes, the question is right, and not just the question is important, but also who asks the question. Back to my example in my relationship — when I sought out a coach, just to get more help, to be able to develop further, my then-partner often said, as an answer, well, I could have told you that. We could have saved the money and I’d have seen it right away. And then I went back into self-reflection and said, yes, but only if you had asked me that, I wouldn’t have reacted to it. Because your question came across as an accusation, as condescending, to me at least, that’s how it came across to me. That doesn’t have to be the case. My evaluation was that it was an accusation, that I had to justify myself. And my coach, who asks me questions because he gets paid for it, he doesn’t care at all how I feel. He’s there to help me. That’s how he gets paid. He tells me uncomfortable truths, and uncomfortable questions in a relationship often lead to a defensive position. I hope you can understand what I mean by that. So the question is really, really important. But also who asks the question, so that when we’re asked a question, we can really engage with it, and not automatically trigger a defense mechanism inside, like, okay, that’s my partner, they want something from me, but I see it differently, now I have to show that you’re right and I’m right — instead, that’s why not just the question, but also who asks the question, is of enormous importance for me, to even be able to walk this developmental path at all.
Yes, thank you so much, and that also makes clear that, generally, with reflection, up to a certain degree, I can reflect on certain things myself, and that definitely makes sense, and it’s important, then, in between, to keep getting this perspective from outside too, for example, to not fall prey to unconscious bias — and by the way, we all fall prey to that, I’ll emphasize that again, that affects all of us, and in one place or another it’s always the case that we simply don’t see or recognize certain possibilities, and might not ask ourselves these questions ourselves. That’s why it makes sense, regardless of what level we’re at, to always have coaches and such around us too, who then keep asking us the corresponding questions, which then bring us back into irritation, so to speak, at that point. Jürgen, would you like to follow up here too?
I can only expressly confirm this, with all my heart, that I keep developing on this topic. And let me try to create a meta-level, or a connection, to what we’ve said so far, and what just became really clear to me again, confirming what I already suspected — that the educational process, the personal educational process, essentially depends on two components. If, for example, I’m in the status of a trainer relative to a trainee, to generate education, that this knowledge, that it requires reflection, requires this so-called inward view, and that this is essentially consciously perceived, and possibly also prompted. But this part of education also includes the knowledge that there’s a really essential unconscious part within us. This unconscious bias, and these heuristics. Just knowing this — watch out, there could possibly be a misdirection grounded in your reflection here — just that alone would be, for me, an essential building block with regard to developing an education around these two positions. Not for nothing is this such an essential topic for me, I think, and heartfelt thanks again, dear Yasemin, that you go so deep in this sub-area too, because things and connections keep coming to mind that you hadn’t seen before. And I’ve really engaged with this topic for a very long time, but it’s always astonishing how one thing leads to another. Thanks again for that.
Yes, thank you so much. Great. Well, if you just look back now on these last 60 minutes, where did we start, with the attempt to define, differentiate, various terms, and where did we end up. And very often it’s also something, I know, in coaching too or such, this working your way along, so to speak, just to let something mature. And letting things mature, and at the end, usually it’s the last few minutes, where suddenly something “breaks through” somehow. Really often, and this is definitely observable analogously in coaching processes too. And at the start, you maybe still have this feeling, let’s see what happens here, or is what we’re discussing right now even goal-oriented at all. And it’s the last few minutes where, through bringing things together, through putting the puzzle pieces together that come together, you can really achieve some quite interesting results, which have arisen here, for example, in this togetherness. And there you see again what effect, or what power, this dialogue ultimately has. Through this dialogue, one thing or another can even be perceived in the first place, or these thoughts can even arise, ones we might not have come to on our own. So, quite exciting too. With that, I’d like to move into today’s closing round. Marc, Jürgen, what are your highlights, that you’d like to underline again, or mention again? Marc.
Today I’d like to thank everyone who listened, because I keep noticing that when someone listens to me, completely new insights often arise while speaking, because I have to gather my thoughts in my head. That’s the same with my partner too. Sometimes someone who listens to you really helps you unconsciously, and leads the speaker to completely new ideas and insights. So thanks to all of you, thanks for being here, and thanks for listening, and for letting me speak.
Yes, great, thank you so much. Jürgen? Yes, I’ll pick up on one of your last statements. First, heartfelt thanks, dear Marc, to you, for your contributions, and Yasemin for the moderation, and to everyone who listened too, but what I still wanted to pick up on, which also became really clear to me again, is this type and quality of communication, and specifically, not just in this room, not just the communication between us, between the three of us who were on stage, but also the way I communicated with myself, with my doubting mind, in this hour — that’s basically worth the saying again, it was an hour stolen from paradise. Heartfelt thanks, and have a lovely day, all of you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. My thanks of course go to everyone too, and I thought it was a great room. I hope you were also able to take away various impulses that really follow these thought processes, so to speak, at this point. And I’m really looking forward to tomorrow, because we now have reflection and self-criticism tomorrow. That means we can transition nicely here too, how can we, through reflection, recognize and correct our own weak points, is the question. Possibly we can also open that up in the direction of strengths, strengths, strengthening too, so to speak, so as not to only consider the, in quotes, negative component. I’m happy to look at both sides, and that we can look at those together. But primarily, tomorrow it should be about this aspect of self-criticism and weak points. And I think really, really interesting aspects will come together here too. I’m curious which direction the room develops in tomorrow, with these guardrails, so to speak. Against this backdrop, you’re all very warmly invited to join again tomorrow. And a note here too, maybe — we’ll probably be setting off today, heading toward Germany. That means we’ll also be connecting via highways, rest stops, and whatever else, so to speak, tomorrow morning at 8am German time, to shape the rooms. Should it happen that we’re not at some stop in time, or there are technical challenges or whatever, just so you know, it’s possible — well, we’ll see, I’ll note it as 5 past, or 10 past, or such, just so you know in advance that there can sometimes be delays here too, against the backdrop that we’re on the road and it’s a long stretch. That as a heads-up for now, but I hope we’ll manage all of that well, so it can still always start nicely on time at 8am German time. In that spirit, I’m looking forward to you, and see you tomorrow. Ciao!
