Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: What role do gratitude and humility play in gaining insight and personal growth — and what’s the difference between humility and modesty anyway? That’s the question we explore in Room #847 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme of “Insight (and gaining it).” Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…
Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.
A wonderful good morning to you. Today we’re talking about the topic of self-knowledge and humility. The description mentions the meaning of gratitude and humility for gaining insight. That has to do with the fact that, due to the character limit, it wasn’t possible to fit both terms, gratitude and humility, into the headline itself. There’s always a certain number of characters you can use here. And that’s why it’s picked up in the description instead. That means we want to look at both terms here, gratitude and humility, in connection with insight and self-knowledge. And yes, I’m very, very curious about that. As every morning, the recording is running in the background again this morning too. That means anyone who’d like to join is warmly invited, and by doing so also agrees that the whole thing will be recorded and published too. And we have three small room rules. One is a profile photo where you’re clearly recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. And anyone who doesn’t want that for whatever reason can of course also use the chat, so we can pick up on this or that too. And with that I’d like to start the reflection room together with you this morning, get into the exchange, and capture various thoughts and perspectives, to then just see which direction the room develops together today, and what we can each take away for ourselves at the end of the 60 minutes. So who’d like to start the room together with me this morning? I’ll mute myself briefly and see who’d like to join.
A wonderful good morning, dear Amara. I’m here now — good morning, dear Marc. What do you say to that? What are your first thoughts?
I’d like to say good morning to the round, lovely to be here with you. My first thoughts are that the word gratitude has gained a completely new meaning for me. I mean, we hear all this, you should be grateful, but basically it was just a word. But gratitude has gained a higher meaning for me, became a higher meaning for me, through the word taken-for-grantedness too. And taken-for-grantedness, this word had a meaning for me when you deal with the death of a family member, or also during Corona, when you simply notice that traveling, which was all taken for granted before, is no longer possible. So things we never thought about, because it’s taken for granted that I can get into the car, the train, the plane, go anywhere, see friends and so on. So the word taken-for-grantedness was the trigger for me to redefine the word gratitude for myself too, namely to be grateful for the things we take for granted.
Yes wonderful, thank you so, so much. Then let’s continue with the other term. What about humility? What do you associate with humility, and do you have the impression that these terms also have some connection to the aspect of insight, self-knowledge?
I had to laugh at myself, because with the word humility, all my hackles first rise — sorry — but only when I connect it with religion. Everything that has to do with religion for me isn’t my world, I just have my own view on that. And so, if you ask me what I think of the term humility, I have to distinguish whether I use it in the religious sense, meaning subordinating my own interests to a higher power, or submission — the person recognizes they’re imperfect and submits to a divine will, and I don’t submit, not to God nor anyone else. But if I define humility differently for myself, with a different meaning and a different value attached, then humility for me means thinking less of myself — that doesn’t mean thinking less of myself, but thinking about myself less — and if you then pick up part of the religious meaning again and bring it in, freeing yourself from your own self-importance and not seeing yourself as the center of the world. And that applies to all relationships, in your own relationship, in the form with our fellow human beings. Not putting yourself at the center, taking yourself too seriously. And if you don’t take yourself too seriously, you can deal much, much better with the supposed misbehavior of friends, or with disappointment or frustration, which we’ve all experienced, because you think, hey, you’re not the center of the world. And what significance does that have now in world events, in the context of all people — what happened there basically has no significance at all.
Yes, totally fascinating. Thank you so, so much. And yes, I personally actually heard the term humility for the first time many years ago and didn’t know it at all, in the context of an expert interview, and then started engaging with it more intensively. By now it’s become a firm part of my vocabulary, and I find it totally fascinating. For me, even if the origin might somehow be found in this religious context, it doesn’t have anything to do with religion personally for me at all, in quotes. That’s why it’s totally fascinating that you also say that it leads to a certain distancing for you at first too, but that if you define or apply the term differently for yourself, you then handle it differently. Interestingly, I also asked our, or my friend ChatGPT once, about both terms in connection with insight and self-knowledge too, and I find the answers that came back very fascinating too, so I’d like to share that with you. On the question in the context of gratitude, ChatGPT answered: gratitude refers to the awareness and appreciation of what one has in life. By being grateful for the things you have, you can develop a positive attitude and perspective on life. This positive attitude can lead to being more willing to have new experiences and be open to new insights. And regarding humility in the context of insight, the answer was: humility refers to being aware of your own limitations and weaknesses. By being humble, you can acknowledge that you don’t know everything and that there’s always room for growth and learning. This allows you to be more open to new insights and perspectives, and willing to learn from others. Overall, gratitude and humility can contribute to having an open and positive attitude toward life and new experiences, which can lead to more insight and personal growth. I find that totally fascinating. I think the lady is quite wise sometimes. What do you say to that, Marc?
Yes, I can underline that 100 percent too. My first thought while you were reading that out, you said gratitude is what you have — that made me think again about this self-importance thing, that everything always revolves around ourselves. And for me gratitude also includes, not what I have, but being grateful for other things. What I mean by grateful — I noticed this after Corona too, or now the situation, well I live in Cologne, Cologne has a million inhabitants, and yet I’m glad I can go out to eat. Not because of Corona, but because there’s no staff anymore. And I remember, the first time I was back at my favorite place, there was a waiter sitting at the table chatting with guests. So he wasn’t taking care of getting us a seat. Basically nothing was right. And at first I was annoyed, and then I was grateful, because the owner of the place told me, I’m glad I have him. If I didn’t have him, the place would be closed. And then I thought, interesting aspect. Okay, so now I’m not annoyed at the waiter anymore, but accept it as it is. And the fact that the waiter was there and didn’t take care of me and I had to wait longer than usual still meant I could go out to eat again. So I was grateful and changed my attitude compared to before.
Yes, wonderful. Thank you so, so much. And I find that really exciting right now, because it also created a bridge for me to something I wrote yesterday. Namely about the term education and learning, and in that context I also picked up the political dimension of the term education. And here too this term self-determination came up. And self-determination also sounds very much like a term that’s first about myself, so to speak. And especially in this political context, self-determination then becomes shared self-determination, and in that sense here too gratitude in relation to myself and gratitude in relation to us, so to speak, to some extent too. So expanding that and juggling the terms mentally in different directions, I find that wonderful at this point. Thank you so, so much for that. Yes, on this occasion I’d like to start the call again and gladly invite more people to join, to get into the exchange here and see together what your thoughts are, what images arise for you, when we get into exchange about this here. Gratitude, humility — does the whole thing have something to do with insight, self-knowledge? How do the terms condition each other, how do they connect? Maybe you also have concrete examples you’d like to bring in. You’re warmly invited to join. Just a reminder again that a recording is running here in the background and the whole thing will also be published. Accordingly you agree to that when you join. And please note three small rules if you’re joining for the first time. I’d like to mention them again. One is a profile photo where you’re clearly recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. And anyone who doesn’t want that for whatever reason is warmly invited to just use the chat to bring in thoughts. And then I can gladly see how we can pick that up. And Ulla also wrote in the chat, being humble from within yourself versus being supposed to be humble, that came through a bit just now. Okay, Marc, do you have another connecting point you’d like to pick up here?
Yes, and namely another word that I also connect with gratitude, that’s perception — so perception and gratitude. On one hand toward ourselves, so being grateful for what we have, but also gratitude toward others, that we perceive others and are grateful. And I’ve observed this in myself, for example when I go toward other groups of people — in Cologne, I saw a traffic warden. When you’re driving yourself, you think, oh good that I didn’t park there, I won’t get a ticket. But addressing my traffic warden and saying, hey, I have total respect for the job you do, and really thanking them for a ticket — I’ve thanked someone for a ticket before, said, you’re just doing your job, in this case I parked wrong, I’m the idiot, I’ll gladly pay it, won’t happen again. And then people tell you that they’re sometimes no longer out alone, because they’re not just insulted, really insulted, but also physically attacked and so on and so on. And so there are professions where, when you talk to them, I have even greater respect, because it’s not nice when you do a job where you do get noticed by people, but basically get cursed at because of your work. And the work only results in things being kept orderly, fire lanes being kept clear and so on and so on. But in that moment, with this gratitude and perception, when we step outside ourselves and change our perspective, that they’re really just doing their job and making life in the city better too, because people who are too lazy to drive into the parking garage or walk further just block sidewalks and then get cursed at for it too, that can’t be right either. And that’s what I mean by perception, gratitude, that the perspective gets turned from inside ourselves toward the outside.
Yes wonderful, thank you so, so much, and in parallel I’ve now also reread Ole’s text several times again. I think she also means this differentiation between being humble from within yourself, versus when that’s told to you from outside, in the sense of, be humble, so from outside, so to speak, this dictation — that here again this differentiation, exactly, we’ve already touched on that. Wonderful. Sometimes with text messages, depending on how you emphasize it, you can interpret different things into it, and sometimes it takes a small moment to really understand the context at that point, and she confirms that wonderfully too. Yes, and for me it’s actually also true regarding humility in this context. Maybe I’ll just share what significance that gained for me. Especially also when we think in the direction of dialogue, or also these encounters we have here every morning on Clubhouse, it has a very special meaning for me. Because indeed this aspect too, of not assuming you carry the wisdom within yourself, so to speak, or know much more than others or similar, but rather, similar to how ChatGPT also described it, to be aware of your limitations and weaknesses on one hand, and that’s not negative at all, but simply in the sense of, there’s always room for improvement. So none of us is perfect in any way; there’s always room to grow. And we also tend very, very strongly to quickly go into evaluations when we read names, when we see pictures or similar here too. And really to step back and just see what can emerge from that, and not immediately go into an evaluation. And also a kind of attitude behind that, being open-minded and looking at what I can also take away from the other person, quite independently of what level they might be operating on, so to speak. So this open attitude in the encounter, to some extent, which for me personally connects with the term humility at this point, in order to then meet at eye level, so to speak, independent of status, knowledge level and so on and so forth, and see what can emerge from that. I don’t know what you say about that, Marc.
Yes, you said something great there about encountering others — when I spent New Year’s Eve in London. And this gratitude and perceiving also means being grateful toward the staff too — we went out to eat again. And then I thanked them, really thanked them, that this evening was even happening at all, because there are only people working in the restaurant. Otherwise, if these people who provide these services didn’t exist, you couldn’t spend any money at all. And I thanked them and said, we’re so happy that we’re here. That resulted in — I don’t know what you call it, a department head or something, someone came from the restaurant and, even though we hadn’t ordered it, put a glass of champagne down for us. Said, we’re so happy that you appreciate our work. Or at a cinema, I remember a cinema visit in Hanover. That was also during Corona times, where we also thanked them, that we actually felt quite safe there. So we were at the cinema, and that’s the great thing. And we also know that the cinema needs staff, and we also want the cinemas to survive. Then afterward, after we talked to the employee, we got a tour and saw things we would never have seen otherwise. He explained the technology to us and so on and so on. And what I mean by that is, when we approach other people, but really approach them from the heart and perceive them, we experience things that we might not need for our professional situation. And without this knowledge, we might be able to go on living just fine. But we conjure a smile onto the other person’s face. And through this reflection, through this mirroring back, I at least always have good feelings too, because that comes back to us, call it energy or whatever, and it just gives you a great feeling and says, wow, that was nice. You don’t remember the film you saw anymore, but the nice encounter you experienced afterward.
Yes great, thank you so, so much, and there are various aspects that can come up here too, and one of the aspects was also picked up by Ismail this morning, who asks the round, is there a difference between humility and modesty? A wonderful question, I think. So is it the same thing, or is there a difference? Let’s think about that a bit together. And Marc, what do you think about that? Is there a difference for you between the two terms? What would you say?
Yes, I’d say there’s definitely a difference, because according to the definition I read, which I engaged with, from the religious approach humility is subordinating your interests to a community or a higher power. So toward the community, that could also be a social community, and subordinating your interests would be, for example, if someone tells me, you Marc, your apartment has to go. I say, why does it have to go? Well, we’re building a highway through here now, isn’t that great. And then I say, I don’t want that, I like living here, I don’t want to move out of my house under any circumstances, and I could now be humble by subordinating my interests to the community, or saying, okay, if you need a highway or whatever, then of course I’ll leave and be happy about it. But that has nothing to do with modesty. So for me subordinating your interests to a higher power or to the community is something different from being modest. And if I live here, same example, I live here and have to leave my house because coal is being mined or something else, that has nothing to do with modesty, but rather with subordination to the community. And that’s why these are two different terms for me.
Yes, wonderful. Thank you so, so much. And especially, I think, because you opened up this aspect again with society and so on, it becomes clear, I think, also with the community, that there’s something “ethical” underlying or behind the term humility, to some extent. Whereas with the aspect of modesty, it could be, for example, that I don’t want to put myself in the foreground or similar. That means, for example, not mentioning certain things or similar, in order to maybe not hurt the other person, to not come across as showy or similar. So there are various things here that can also very quickly have to do with the aspect of self-worth or similar. So here too, more with the aspect of still being occupied with myself to some extent, while with this term humility, so to speak, this ethical component, this community, societal component moves more into the foreground, so to speak. Maybe we can go into the distinction from this perspective a bit here. And being humble doesn’t necessarily mean that I don’t show the things I’ve done or achieved or similar, or the knowledge I bring — we just had this example with Clubhouse — that doesn’t mean I don’t show that, in quotes, but rather refers more to the attitude in the encounter, for example. Yes, in the sense of a bigger whole, so to speak, here too. Here it’s something like enlightenment, coming into exchange together, reflecting together, opening the door so that different perspectives can be exchanged at eye level, to then draw various insights, whatever that might individually mean for each person, and then again with the thought of community, so to speak, to also contribute to it, because in some form that has an effect in the respective environment and so on, and comes back into another cycle, so to speak, in quotes. So whatever we understand by these cycles — family, professional, in a team and so on — and then unfolds its own very individual power at that point again. Do you want to follow up on that, Marc?
Yes, I wanted to ask you about that. We fortunately met in person once in Rosenheim, that was wonderful, dear Yasemin. What was the name of the managing director there again? The name doesn’t come to me right now, the master there, from that speaker conference. We heard a talk there too, but the name doesn’t come to me.
Gerd Kulhavi.
Exactly, and that was an experience, really wonderful. And on the word modesty, he gave us a talk about radiance, modesty, and such a likeable interview. The man talked about who he’d met, and unlike other talk shows, where people always just say, I’m the cool guy, I did this, this is my idea and so on, he just told us about other people, and this man’s charisma, it was just amazing. And I think he wrote a book too, about radiance. And if you’re modest within this radiance and have this charisma, then many politicians could learn from that too, that it’s not always about putting yourself so much in the foreground, but letting others shine. And when you let others shine, light also always falls back on you. And that just came to mind again, also on the topic of gratitude, modesty, and radiance.
Yes, wonderful. Thank you so, so much. Yes, we did the authors’ breakfast then. That was in, I think, Stuttgart, if I remember correctly. Entrepreneur radiance, from hidden champion to lighthouse of the industry, that’s what the book is called. And there’s a recording too, oh no, how it was in Rosenheim, there’s a recording in the podcast too, so to speak. You can listen to that too, or order the book. It’s definitely a really wonderful book. And there, exactly, he brought in various examples too, how people change, for example, when fame in some form comes along with recognition. It was a very down-to-earth interview and exchange of the experiences and observations he’d gathered over many years, both externally and internally for himself. So I can remember this radiance, entrepreneur radiance, very well, and the book too, which really contributed to these aspects to some extent. And so I find it lovely that you can still remember that well too. It’s sometimes nice how the puzzle pieces come back together. I mean, that’s already about two years ago now, right, Marc?
Wasn’t that already 2020, Yasemin, when Corona started? That must be almost three — I don’t know exactly.
Well, could be. Yes, so quite a while ago actually. So I find it all the more exciting that this interview came to mind for you again in this context. And you can see how our brain works, and how everything gets stored away nicely, so to speak, in quotes. Yes, I find that really great. So thank you for bringing in this aspect here too.
Yes, and then the question in the next step is also to look again at how it actually is with gratitude and humility, if we pick up these terms again, in relation to insight, so self-knowledge. Does that help with it in any way? Does it have nothing to do with each other? Or how, if it’s connected, is it connected? Do you maybe have ideas about that too and can bring that in? Marc, if you like, you can look directly here again at whether you’d like to build the bridge, and then we can gladly bring in Jürgen.
Then I’d rather hear from Jürgen first. Good morning, Jürgen, lovely that you’re here.
Wonderful. A wonderful good morning, dear Jürgen.
Good morning, dear Yasemin. Good morning, dear Marc. Good morning, everyone in the room. The final trigger was your last question, this attempt to make a connection between these terms. And I’ll try it from my perspective on the interpretation of the essential terms we’re dealing with, humility, today in connection with insight and gratitude. I knowingly and deliberately go from the original word stem of humility and put it into the room. With that I’m postulating that this is my view, but I think it’s an essential anchor that we know humility has two original word stems. On one side, evident to everyone, humility [Demut] is also a form of courage [Mut]. And the D stands, through an abbreviation over the centuries, actually for “to serve” [dienen]. Humility is true, or is, also in interpretation, especially in a religious sense, the courage to serve. And when I now try to make a connection to insight and gratitude, then for me there’s a logical chain, in the first step toward insight. Because insight, I think I’ve mentioned this several times already, is based for me on three essential components as the result of a reflection process, and one of them is truth. For me, regarding humility, this courage to serve someone or something, I have to attribute an individual, my own personal degree of truth to it. It’s true for me — and we’ve discussed this sufficiently — that there is no “the truth,” but hopefully there is each person’s own truth. And that connection, that’s the connection for me from humility to insight. A truth that’s basically based for me, that I’ve defined for myself. And regarding gratitude — gratitude is basically, how should I put it, the emotional feedback to myself, having recognized that from my own position I accept something — I’ll say it symbolically now, this isn’t meant as an evaluation — that stands above me, or that I define as standing above me in some form, and acknowledge it. And this awareness, this having recognized, having gained insight, is basically the reward for me, the feedback for my humility. Thank you for listening.
Yes wonderful, thank you so, so much. While I’d like to build the bridge again or follow up here again — Jürgen, maybe you’d also like to think in parallel whether there’s an example, it can be fictional or from real life too, that we might be able to grasp a bit more tangibly from this abstract thing, which you presented really well, I think, from a situation or similar. Maybe you’d like to think about that in parallel. Or would you like to continue directly, Jürgen?
Yes, that would be nice, if I can.
Yes, of course. I thought maybe you needed a second, you know.
Yes, there’s something that connects for me personally with humility, and not so much referenced to my own person, but a person I hold in high regard, and that’s Reinhold Messner. And whose path I’ve followed from personal interest and sporting background from his earliest days. And you can read about it, and even trace it in interviews, what attitude the young Reinhold Messner had toward nature, especially toward the mountain. He was one of the apologists who tried to demystify the mountain, and with it nature, by dismissing all this — in quotes, I’m almost quoting him verbatim — all this babble about the mountain calling and having to serve the mountain. If you listen to Reinhold Messner today, this image has changed diametrically too, through his work for nature — he was one of the leading candidates for the Greens in Italy. And today he speaks quite openly about a humility before the power of the mountain. And that’s a component, a development, that I also relate to myself, that I say — I think humility doesn’t come from one moment to the next, because it requires a reflective process in which I recognize, evaluate, and position myself within the evaluation construct of my environment. But then we’re back at the old topic, that it’s a development process and therefore also a lifelong learning process, which doesn’t necessarily have to succeed from the start, but which, over the course of time, can certainly differ from the evaluation in the end result.
Yes wonderful, thank you so, so much. Marc, do you want to follow up?
Yes, I can underline what Jürgen said. Dear Jürgen, at the same time I found another definition of humility, where I’d like to bring in a different example. And I have to read it to you first so you know what I mean: humility as insight into necessity and the will to accept given circumstances. So, if I look at that for life, then I have a problem again, if humility, so used for political reasons, if it’s humility, so insight into necessity and the will to accept the given circumstance, that also means, if I’m in a village and someone says, come on Marc, that’s just, that’s God-given, one person is a king and you’re a farmer, and that’s how it is, be humble and serve — then I wouldn’t be humble, because in that case humility would be used for political reasons and also for power-strategic reasons, to keep me small, so I don’t get out of my situation. Then I’d accept the circumstance. I’m just born a farmer and stay a farmer. I’m a worker and stay a worker. And if that means I can’t break out of the role I’m playing now, or out of a society, then humility prevents further development. Like you described it with Reinhold Messner, being humble before nature, before its greatness, and that we play no role at all compared to the universe — I can underline that again, and that’s why it’s so interesting, with what evaluation we look at the term humility, and how we then also use humility again, maybe for political or power-political reasons, to pursue our own interests.
Thank you so, so much. Jürgen, you wanted to follow up here.
Yes, directly responding to Mark’s defensive stance — I hope I interpreted you correctly, that you won’t submit. That’s exactly the point, I think, that point, that it happens precisely because it doesn’t correspond to your own truth, defined for you, and therefore doesn’t justify a humility. So for me that’s both understandable and something I absolutely nod along to, I’m completely on your side there, dear Marc. The insight process, as the essential basis, defines for me a certain truth, which doesn’t have to be another person’s truth, and therefore excludes me submitting. It’s actually quite interesting, by the way, if you picture this counterpart. What’s the opposite of humility then? It’s not frustration or whatever it was, but for me — mind you, for me — it’s submission. And modesty, which I think Ismail brought in, is also one of the essential facets I’d insert within these two cornerstones. But the counterpoint for me is submission. And to conclude, that results from the fact that it doesn’t carry within it a truth individually defined by me, but solely submission to the necessity and dictate of someone else. Thank you.
Thank you so, so much. And I find that totally exciting again here too, what we associate with terms and also what that does to us to some extent, in how we go into interpretations, how we deal with terms and so on. And for me the term humility, for example, is very, very strongly anchored with something. And that’s why I’m totally with you, Jürgen, on this aspect. That also has something to do with reflection or similar, that this is a reflection process, so to speak, that leads to a humility, for example, in quotes. For me this aspect comes up directly. We’ve picked this up and talked about it before in the past. “I know that I know nothing.” So we’re back at the Socrates quote. And that means, the more, for example, when I look back at my own biography, the more I learned, the more knowledge I acquired and processed, the more strongly aware I became of how complex it all is. And we just had this term truth too, this “is there even a truth at all?” or “isn’t it always just each person’s own truth?” in quotes. So here too we’ve already opened up various rooms on this. And the more complex, the more I understand these connections and the complexity, and then not just look at it from one professional discipline, for example, but from this diversity, interdisciplinary, the more clearly it became to me personally that there’s always room above, so to speak. And that doesn’t mean I know nothing, and there we’re at this quote too, which is often not correctly rendered by the translation. So not that I know nothing, but the more I know, the more I know that I don’t know, in the sense of wisdom. And this whole insight, and there we’re at this reflection process that’s taking place here — that wasn’t there from the start, but maybe it started at some point with, I’ll do this further education or that university degree or something, to acquire certain things, to learn that. But the more then g…
…ot added, is to realize precisely this, that it has no end at all. And then we’re back at the term lifelong learning too, and now I’m building this bridge in all directions, so to speak, again, to maybe make it tangible again, how far I’ve grasped this term humility for myself at this point, or what’s behind it, once more for myself. And I’m curious what you say about that. Marc, Jürgen, do you want to follow up on that maybe?
Gladly, Jürgen. Yes, thank you for this arc. I agree with that unreservedly, and let me put it in a sentence or a question: can I even demand humility from a child, from maybe even an adolescent at all? And that’s exactly the background you showed, dear Yasemin, this lifelong learning and also, at some point, through a reflection process, coming to the insight that I know that I don’t know, for whatever reasons. And so, dear Marc, I share your aversion in this respect toward any religion that demands humility from young people who don’t have this knowledge and this reflective process necessary for it at their disposal. Unless it’s permissible if I allow a reflection process and also the objection of contradiction with it. But I doubt that’s even possible at a young age. And that’s why I’m extraordinarily critical in this respect toward any religion, which I pin down, concretely pin down, on this submission and actually the misunderstanding of humility, which is demanded by every religion, almost every religion.
Yes, totally fascinating. And while you were saying that, I’d even bring in another term here, reflection and maturation process. The maturation process at this point, because I’ve also engaged with the professional context and professionalism again these last few days, and professionalization is also a process that goes along with reflection and maturation in the context of work, of the profession, so to speak. And that’s why I think it fits in wonderfully here too. That means, on one hand reflection takes place, and through reflection also a certain maturation, so to speak a maturation process that’s gone through here. And that’s why I’m totally with you. That’s a beautiful question. Can I demand this of a child or an adolescent at all, when it’s connected with this reflection and maturation process in this context, so to speak, I find that a wonderful question.
Yes, Jürgen, gladly.
Yes, another thought jumps into my head through your concise expansion. We talk, I think, I don’t know, but I believe even today still, about a “middle maturity” and a “certificate of maturity” in the school context. I mean, sorry, if you look at our school system and the reasons behind it, then okay, I’ll spare myself any further comment. Thank you for this bridge.
Wonderful, lovely, thank you so, so much. Marc, what would you like to add to that?
I confess to a middle maturity. And I’m doing so well, my life is so fantastic, that I can only encourage everyone that a great life is possible even with a middle maturity.
Yes, absolutely. Thank you so, so much. Yes, wonderful. And there you can really see a nice example again with this — we just started with the terms and what bridges we’ve actually opened up here, and in which directions the room has then developed too. And I find that really mega exciting at this point. Thank you so, so much for the nice examples, for the different definitions, for the associations we have with the terms ourselves, and thereby paving the way, step by step together, to see what develops from that. And yes, I don’t know if you have any more points you’d like to add. Otherwise we can gladly move into the closing round for today, and we’ve always said, it’s a maximum of 60 minutes. We don’t necessarily have to use it up to the last minute. That means, if we now say, this is nicely rounded off, nothing more comes to mind that could be added, then we can gladly go into the closing round. Do you have further points you’d like to bring in? Marc, gladly.
Just one more point. We have the terms modesty and humility. And what I also find quite interesting is, when we, as a Western nation, especially in Europe, tell other people, you have to be more modest, you have to be humble — we have cars, we’ve had smartphones, we’ve had all that. Then it’s not hard to say, well dear Marc, you don’t need the new smartphone now. I say, you’re right, my old one works fine too. But in regions of the world where that’s not yet the case, and we then point the finger at time and increasing environmental pollution and so on and so on, then it’s of course really hard to tell other peoples, other cultures, you now have to be humble and modest and so on and so on. You can see how entangled all this is, and how complex, like you said too, dear Yasemin. And I remember a teacher, in connection with this, it was really fantastic, who told me that the older he gets — he always used to have an answer for everything. When he was young, he had a solution for every question. The older he gets, the more knowledge he has, and the fewer answers are available to him to be able to solve it all, because it’s become so complex. I wish you all a great day.
Oh, I don’t know, dear Marc. Now you’ve opened up a huge point, I think. I don’t even know if we can wrap that up again so quickly. So here… sorry, sorry, thanks. Because before we actually go into the closing round now, I’d like to pick up this thought again, because with that you’re also opening up a political aspect from my perspective. And I’m curious what you say to that, because especially here, we don’t even need to look at other countries in quotes or something, but can of course also immediately pick up on current events right now, like the climate activists or similar. Here too we very strongly tend, when we look at these discussions, toward this “you go do it” or “you’re also jointly responsible for us” or whatever. And these bridges that get opened up here, to look at this again too. So even within our own society we tend to always point the finger, in quotes, at others, or make demands of others. And here you could also pick up these discussions, especially at the political level, that also take place here, to look, against the backdrop of these terms, at whether that also means something in relation to myself, so not just pointing at others, but also looking at what other demands you could make, that aren’t primarily directed at others, in quotes, but maybe even directed at yourself. And I’d just like to open up one example, because we actually had this discussion, in quotes, recently in the team, regarding demands being made, for example whether that’s the energy transition, whether that’s in the context of heating and so on being discussed, nuclear power plants, cars, air travel and so on. I then asked the question, how is it actually, if we look at our young generation, where we also talk about Generation Z and so on, where we say we now also need to sensitize the other generations, that they, for example, simply grew up with phones and so on. If we just think about that alone, and I posed this question, each of us, how many phones does each of us have, in quotes, that applies to the new generation at least as strongly as it does to us too — would they, for example, be willing to say, we’ll do without phones? I honestly can’t imagine that at all, if I were to talk about it with a climate activist. But I don’t know. It’s just an assumption. And to say, why don’t we demand completely different things? Because if we extrapolated that, starting from electricity consumption, not only, but also the metal parts and all the raw materials in there, up to what effects that has in other countries too, because these technical things we use here are of course often manufactured in other countries too, and also lead to environmental pollution and so on and so on. So you could open up completely different discussions here too, but we don’t really talk about that at all somehow. I don’t know what you say to that, Marc, Jürgen.
I have to laugh right now. Sorry, Jürgen, I have to laugh right now. Yasemin, the internet and Netflix and everything that goes with it, the internet is one of the biggest air polluters of the industry at all. And that’s why I had to laugh just now, you’re right. And then you see again how complex and interwoven it all is.
Jürgen.
Yes, that’s indeed a very wide opening, but the logical consequence from the concept of humility. I’ll repeat myself, that which is based on my individual truth, namely then reverses negatively, that I demand this humility, based on my truth, from the other person. And that’s, thankfully, dear Mark, been the door-opener to the actually negative consequence that can result from humility, if — let me put it this way — if it’s not genuine humility. If, namely, I don’t have the level of insight that my humility before the power of nature, before the dangers of the neglect of our nature, doesn’t have to be my own truth and not necessarily the other person’s truth. And that can be transferred to many other things. A very current example for me, and I got quite grumpy about this, was this discussion in recent days about the costs of Charles’s coronation, which was simply based on the postulate, this cost millions in tax money, and that no longer fits the times. And just the conclusions drawn from that — regarding the costs I’ll say something briefly too, but then I’d like to leave it, it’s not our topic today — just this finger-pointing, saying, from my understanding of what’s actually contemporary, that has to be the understanding of another nation, with which I’m implying that I’ve not only understood both their culture and their civilization, but see myself in a position to criticize it too. And regarding the costs, just for clarification, this event cost the British taxpayer a little more than a carton of milk. Namely, if I remember correctly, 2.20 pounds per head. So this negative reversal of humility is, for me, definitely, individually for me, this slipping into an unreflected submission on one hand, and on the other hand this presumption that my humility, my understanding and my truth also has to be the other person’s.
Let me ask again here, Jürgen, whether we’re then not talking about arrogance?
That’s a good question. I would relate arrogance to myself individually though, that I haven’t properly reflected on my supposed humility and don’t so much — please don’t misunderstand me now — submit to something given, but rather place myself above it. But for me, arrogance is something that has an effect through my behavior too, which of course is also perceived by others. But as I said, if the other person — I have to say this too. If someone else tells me, you’re humble, you’re arrogant, then they have to know my truth and have to be able to evaluate it. That applies to both terms.
I have a thesis right there. I find the explanation you gave wonderful. Now I could assume, and this is the thesis, false humility can show itself as arrogance.
Correct.
Wonderful, wonderful. You see, Marc, what you opened up with an additional contribution? That’s how fast it can go. It was simply a great morning.
As always.
As always. Thank you for being here, Jürgen.
Correct, in my sense. Yes, correct. And thank you all for being here, because without everyone together, that’s always the case, otherwise I’d do exactly the same thing, that we’re only I-focused again. Thank you all for being here, because without all of us this room isn’t possible at all. Thank you.
Yes, absolutely. Yes, then let’s really use the opportunity now, really once more — I think that was really a nice rounding off, so to speak, to also step into the closing round together. What were really the highlights for you from the room, or is there something you’d like to underline in closing? Mark, Jürgen.
The highlight for me was that I’m grateful to be able to be here again today. Thank you so, so much.
Jürgen.
A somewhat playful remark, dear Yasemin. You know me as an advocate on one hand of terminology, and as someone who very strictly, or likes to strictly, stick to the guidelines of a title set by the moderator. I found it extraordinarily refreshing today that we stayed on topic and kept trying to maintain and uphold this connection to insight and to terms we’ve already discussed several times, like truth, and I’ll pat us on the back now and say, what developed from that, you saw today, that was simply phenomenal. Thank you all and have a nice day.
Yes wonderful, thank you so, so much. I’m totally with you, with all of you, and I’m really happy. So I also think it was a really, really wonderful, insight-rich room today too. And especially really this, when we look at it from this meta-perspective too. Jürgen, did you want to add something, or did your mic accidentally turn on?
Sorry, sorry, that was a mistake.
Alright. And when you really look at it again from this meta-perspective, so to speak, how we worked our way along step by step, so to speak, along the terms and so on, and what came out of that, with a contribution, where you might have the feeling — and that’s what characterizes these rooms — that a thought, which Marc brought in again at the end, what a wide door that opened again, and how quickly we still managed to take the reins back in hand and bring it back together, I find that wonderful. And exactly this brain juggling, this ordering of thoughts and so on, is really fun in this interplay too. And that’s what characterizes Deep Talk. That would be limited, in quotes, if not even impossible alone, but in this exchange, so many thoughts, impulses that come in here, that let images emerge for us, let bridges emerge, and the whole thing reflectively always leading back toward the room title, can deliver such nice results too. I found that really a prime example. I really enjoyed today a lot. Thank you both, Marc and Jürgen, and also to those who contributed via the chat. So I think it’s wonderful. I’m really looking forward to tomorrow. That continues with self-knowledge and meaningfulness, the significance of meaning and purpose for insight and gaining insight and personal growth. And yes, in that sense you’re warmly invited to join again tomorrow morning at 8am. I wish you a wonderful day and say, until tomorrow. Ciao!
