Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: What role does meaningfulness play in gaining insight and personal growth — and does knowing why something makes sense actually get us to change our behavior? That’s the question we explore in Room #848 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme of “Insight (and gaining it).” Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…
Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.
A wonderful good morning to you. Today we’re talking about self-knowledge and meaningfulness, so the significance of meaning and purpose for gaining insight and for personal growth. And with that we’re picking up on yesterday’s room about humility and continuing on. How important is it, actually, that there’s a meaning and a purpose behind what we do, so to speak? And to what extent does that connect with the aspect of insight and gaining insight? And that’s what we want to look at together today. So you’re warmly invited again this morning to join and bring in your first thoughts, impulses, associations on the topic, maybe pick up examples too, so we can simply look together in exchange at where the room takes us together today. And yes, another reminder for anyone joining for the first time today, that the room is being recorded. Anyone who joins and wants to speak is warmly invited, provided they agree that it’s being recorded and can accordingly be published too. And we have three small room rules to follow: a profile photo where you’re clearly recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio, simply to make sure these are genuinely meant contributions and not Clubhouse trolls. And in the interest of fairness, the rules apply equally to everyone. And anyone who doesn’t want that for whatever reason can of course use the chat and bring in various thoughts, questions or similar there, so I can gladly pick that up and bring it in over the course of the exchange too. And with that I’d like to open the round. I’m curious what you say about the topic. So let’s see. Yes, Marc joins right away, I find that wonderful. A wonderful good morning, dear Marc. What do you say about the topic?
Good morning to the round. Well, I’ll start again today with the Jürgen approach. Good morning to the round and good morning dear Jürgen, because I always find Jürgen’s approach and way of tackling things wonderful. So whenever you announce a topic, I make sure of what meaning I attach to the word, in this case the word “meaningful,” so I can even start thinking about the topic at all. And with the word meaningful, if you look it up briefly on the internet, once you think it through, it comes up as purposeful and reasonable.
Marc, I just couldn’t hear you anymore. Could you say that again please, if you enter that into the internet?
Sorry, I just got a call. If you enter “meaningful,” the word meaning that comes up first is thought-through, purposeful and reasonable. That matches my assessment too. And then I really thought about this for a long time. The room is called self-knowledge, meaningfulness. To what extent does meaningfulness, so meaningful action too, lead to insight and then to new results. And after thinking about it for a long time, I came to the conclusion that you have to answer it like a defense attorney would — not at all. It doesn’t lead to growth at all. Because there are incredibly many groups. If it were that simple, that meaningful action — so thought-through, purposeful and reasonable — would lead to good results and growth, that would be totally great, if we met now and you’re my coach, Yasemin, and say, “Marc, don’t you think it would be sensible to do more sport next year?” Great idea. Yes. And then you could also change your diet. I think that’s totally great and sensible. And you could quit smoking too. As I said, I don’t smoke, but you could quit smoking too, because smoking causes cancer or could cause cancer. I think that’s a totally fantastic approach, dear Yasemin. And then we meet a year later and look at what I’ve implemented of these sensible things, which I do indeed underline as sensible — namely nothing. Because, and you can explain this better than me, because our brain avoids effort, or how we use effort. And the second thing that occurred to me, there are also groups in America, I don’t want to say the name now, but there’s a group that puts forward absurd theories. And people don’t follow this group because it makes sense or because it’s logical at all, but because people also join groups simply to belong to a group in the first place. And so I’d say, the question, is meaningfulness sensible for our growth — it always depends. We can find examples where it’s sensible for ourselves, but we’ll surely also find examples where you shake your head and say, there’s no sense behind that at all and there can be no growth at all. And yet people act accordingly, because humans are so complex that it would be too simple to recognize a meaning and thereby influence our actions so that we’d all be on the straight track and all successful. Humans are simply too, our brain is simply too complex for that to be implementable.
Yes, thank you so, so much. And I find it interesting to look in this direction too. So whether, for example, something that seems meaningful to me and serves a purpose, so to speak, can also lead to an insight, or the reverse direction, that I gain an insight, so to speak, and therefore then translate something into action, and meaningfulness plays a role here too. And yes, the point you opened up is quite exciting. That means, even if I consider certain things meaningful, it doesn’t yet mean that they — even if I’ve gained the insight for myself, it doesn’t necessarily mean that I then also go into action. And so, yes, and then the conclusion from that, to say, it doesn’t necessarily always have to be tied to personal growth, so to speak. The question here at this point is also, what actually is personal growth? Is personal growth something that can only arise once I go into an action? Or is gaining insight alone, without deriving an action from it, possibly not already personal growth, because I’ve gained an insight? So I’d find that really exciting too, to break this down into individual components here in this context and look at it exactly. Marc, do you want to follow up here?
Yes, that’s also a very exciting and complex question, and I of course sat down and thought about it too. If I now interpret growth as an entrepreneur, so growth in the sense of, my company has grown, I’ve generated more revenue, generated more customers, I’m successful, the way entrepreneurs like to be portrayed or defined, and I then compare or look in my environment at how people achieved that, then I personally came to the realization that it’s rarely intelligence, knowledge or opportunities that lead to that result. And all the people I observe in my environment, they all did one thing, they went into action, into doing, and had really strong discipline, stronger than many other people who also have the opportunities, the knowledge and the intelligence. So it’s not just the meaning for these people, which of course also plays a role, that’s important to achieve something, to get into growth, if we define growth as success. It doesn’t have to be that we grow, but if we say that we define growth as success, then the people who are successful are the ones who really went into action, who mustered the discipline and so on. But it’s rarely intelligence, so knowledge or opportunities, but it always just comes down to action.
Yes, thank you so, so much. I don’t know if I’d necessarily always equate personal growth with success at this point, because it depends on what we individually define as success too. So from my perspective personal growth can simply also be a gain in insight. And as I said, depending on what you define as success, but most people do define a certain achievement of a goal or similar with it too. But that doesn’t necessarily have to be the case. So in that sense I’d decouple that from this concept of success for now, because otherwise we have another term we’d need to look at more closely again in this context. And yes, what’s interesting is this aspect you opened up too, that even if something seems meaningful, it doesn’t mean at all that I go into action. That means the meaningfulness or purpose of something isn’t necessarily sufficient yet to initiate a change process, to get into action. And I’d like to look at that more closely, since Jürgen has also spoken up again, I’d like to bring in Jürgen. A wonderful good morning, Jürgen, what do you say about the topic?
Good morning, dear Yasemin, good morning, dear Marc, and everyone in the room. The trigger, I’d like to put this first again today, the motivation for coming up on stage now, was the key term “growth.” And I’d like to, regarding the terms we’re dealing with, which have already come up, purpose and goals — define my own position from my consulting practice. Maybe, hopefully that’s helpful for you. Namely I make a very clear distinction. Not least because we have different terms, so they must differ in some form. Namely the situation, a completely normal situation in the consulting business, that a client “challenges” me, as they say, challenges me with the statement, I want to reduce the throughput times in the processing of my credit department by 20 percent. That’s basically the target figure they’re postulating for me. That’s supposed to be achieved. Many clients in the past were always very surprised when I said, and what’s the answer to the “what for,” what for are you doing this, what for, what do you want to achieve by reaching this goal? And that’s basically the purpose of the whole thing for me. And applied to this example, by reducing the throughput times in processing, I haven’t a) gained any competitive advantage yet, and b) haven’t done anything good for my customer either, because they still pay the same amount of money for processing their application. So there has to be a superordinate something above this goal, and that’s the purpose for me. Please don’t fixate on the terminology itself now. What matters to me is the distinction, the clear separation, and with that I’m building the bridge to our topic of meaning and meaningfulness. Because to the question of why do you do that, what for do you do that, the answer can only give the “what for” that it makes sense — namely the meaning lies in improving my competitive position against competitors and thereby acquiring new customers. And now to build the bridge to insight, gaining insight represents this superordinate purpose for me, and not the goal. The goal consists of the actions, the deeds, that should be meaningful — namely meaningful interpreted as an action, an approach, a process, aimed at serving the meaning. And that’s why it seems very important to me to make this distinction and to consider and establish that with mere goal fulfillment — and dear Marc, you actually put that quite aptly — that with the checkmark next to it and I did it and got coached or whatever, that’s actually not done, because the meaning and the purpose weren’t fulfilled. Thank you.
Yes, thank you so, so much. And regarding the differentiation of the terms goal and purpose, I’m totally with you. Whether we call it purpose now or something else, let’s leave that aside. But I think, in principle it’s clear, this “what for” is something different than defining a goal, so to speak, and just wanting to run in that direction. At the same time I’d like to look more closely at this aspect of meaningfulness. So if I now pick up a different example, maybe from the private context. Let’s take something from the health aspect, something like, I should quit smoking. That would be sensible, in quotes, we also use the term sensible there, and I think that possibly a different kind of being-sensible is meant here, so let’s look at that more closely. What’s actually behind this meaningfulness? So in the sense of, I’ve understood that it’s unhealthy, I’ve understood that I’m not doing myself any good with it, maybe shortening my life or something. But even though rationally, on the cognitive level, the understanding, so to speak, isn’t enough here yet, even if the “what for” is maybe clear, it’s not necessarily sufficient to change the behavior. And that’s why I’d like to look at that again, is that a different “sensible” we’re talking about here, or is there something more behind it? Marc, Jürgen.
I’d like to briefly confirm what Jürgen said, that’s quite exciting. I just thought, if we look at the “what for,” so if you tell me now, Yasemin, smoking isn’t good, smoking is unhealthy, that’s why you should quit — then that’s certainly sensible and makes sense to me too. I’ll only change it if it comes from within, so if it doesn’t come from outside, if this meaning isn’t carried to me from outside, that you tell me, what’s this sensible for, but rather I have to participate myself and arrive at the “what for.” And once I’ve confirmed this meaningfulness, so to speak, reflected on it, that I know the “what for,” if I keep going like this, or if the doctor says, if you don’t start moving now, you’ll get diabetes, you’ll… whatever, if you don’t do it now, that will happen, then that’s certainly sensible too, but I only get into the movement, into the execution, once I myself also decide what it’s good for. And once I’ve decided that, the way Jürgen described it, then I also have a chance to grow and change things. So the “what for” comes from within and meaning comes from outside. Jürgen, what do you say to that?
I have to think about that. Especially the last sentence left me with some doubt, dear Mark. Maybe I’m misinterpreting it, because giving meaning or also a purpose, also the distinction — we often say meaning and purpose, that has meaning and purpose — is there a difference there? Let’s set that aside, but what you’re saying, does that basically mean, or am I transferring this onto a motive, the motivation, intrinsic extrinsic motivation, and on that I don’t have an opinion at the moment.
Yes, especially now more and more terms are coming up too, so let’s look at that again here too, think about it. Interestingly, especially when we look at it from brain research, this distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation doesn’t exist at all. So either I’m motivated or I’m not. Incentives can always be set to bring about a motivation, so to speak. But our brain doesn’t distinguish whether that now comes from outside or whether it comes from inside, so to speak. So either something sets my engine in motion, yes, then I either have a motive to act or I don’t have one. And whether someone else does that with a reward from outside, but I can also set myself a reward, in quotes, to get my motivation system going, to activate it — our brain doesn’t distinguish that at all. So maybe I’ll add that on the side too. But you can already tell that this is really once more — and here I’m with Jürgen too, with this meaning from outside. The question is, is there actually a meaning from inside and a meaning from outside? Because especially if we pick up this aspect of extrinsic and intrinsic motivation from brain research here and say our brain basically doesn’t know this distinction at all, then maybe there’s also no meaning from inside and meaning from outside, or rather no differentiation in that sense, along the lines of, if the meaning lies outside, then that’s not meaning for me, because it has to come from inside. But rather, similar to motivation, so to speak, either it gets me going, my inner drive, or it doesn’t. And whether that’s now set in motion from outside, because I go along with it, because I find it good, or whether it’s developed and set in motion from inside, from myself, so to speak — that maybe isn’t even relevant. And if we look, for example, at companies or such, where some, let’s say visionaries, pioneers, whatever, have an idea that company members, team members follow, so to speak, it’s often the case there too that this meaning-giving is determined from outside for the company. And because I find that good, for example, I apply to this company in the first place. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that I already go in with this meaning, in quotes. What do you say to that?
Yes, Jürgen, gladly. Yes, thank you. I slightly disagree with you. Thank you for your explanation regarding brain research. With respect, the view, like with many other contexts, the view purely from brain research, which I value very much, but it’s only one of many. There’s also a philosophical one, there’s basically for every reason — it’s a philosophical view, namely how humans deal with this matter. And I do think, dear Yasemin, that there’s a difference between intrinsic and extrinsic, also regarding the giving of meaning. Because, and my reasoning for that, please correct me, is, if something comes from within myself, then the only one who can object and resist is myself, by suppressing this motivation or not realizing it. If it comes from outside, the opponent, in quotes, is someone other than me. And with this opponent there are emotional, political, societal, etc. connections that can, under certain circumstances, lead to me rejecting a justified motivation simply because I don’t like the guy. And that’s my reasoning for the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. Again, intrinsic, I’m the counterpart. Extrinsic can be someone who, without any objective connection and driven by objective reason at all, leads me to a decision regarding this motivation. But I think, now really, if I keep positioning myself as an advocate of this topic, we’re actually already quite far apart. But I still find it extremely fruitful how this discussion is developing again. Thank you.
Yes, thank you so, so much. And especially if I pick up the last aspect again, because it’s outside, so to speak, for example I can’t stand that person or something, then we’re very quickly in this emotional context. And especially the initiating or the motivation is very much connected with two questions that the brain asks for us unconsciously, so to speak. One, securing existence — does this give me something regarding my survival, my securing of existence? And the second question is, what do I get out of it? And if something is disturbed on the emotional level toward the person outside, then that of course does something to me. But that’s not a purely cognitive decision. And especially motivation isn’t purely cognitive; here too all the processes run in the background, so to speak, interestingly. Raphael has also spoken up. So I’d like to bring you in too, and then we can gladly make cross-connections again. Raphael, what do you say to that?
Yes, morning Yasemin, good morning Jürgen, good morning Marco, morning to the round. Yes, exciting. Yes, I wanted to say something from the brain side of things. Namely we have a reward center, and that functions pleasure-based. That’s not influenceable by us. That means, I’ve quit smoking twice. I’ve also successfully started again. Right now I’m not smoking. You need a higher law to quit and defeat your unconscious. That means it has to hang much higher for you to be able to do something there. All topics that are pleasure-based, and meaning is pleasure-based too, it has to bring me pleasure, gain, for something to make sense, then I also see the meaningfulness in something. So I always only have a gain, I never have a loss, and that’s the tension. That’s why, I think Sonja would also have been up here for a while if she were in the room, because it’s not influenceable. That means we’re unconsciously controlled, and it’s decided unconsciously whether we get up at night to go to the fridge or not. We smoke, that’s unconscious. We do lots of things that are stupid, that are silly, but we like doing stupid things. And that’s the exciting thing about the story. So that’s my opinion on that.
Yes, thank you so, so much. And interestingly I wrote about that just yesterday. That has to do with dopamine too. And maybe, let me pick that up, I just pulled it up, I saved it just yesterday, as I said, and had written it. And it’s about this motivation aspect too. Namely, dopamine is a messenger substance and is often incorrectly referred to as the happiness hormone. However, dopamine is not the messenger substance of happiness, but the messenger substance for anticipation. It’s the drive substance that motivates us, that drives us, to reach a goal. The prospect of making a catch on the hunt activates the nucleus accumbens in our brain. That’s an important area of our reward system. This leads to an increased concentration of the messenger substance mentioned here, dopamine, which triggers the feeling of anticipation in us and ultimately motivates us to go on the hunt too. But how can we influence whether dopamine is present in sufficient quantity in our body? If we manage to activate our motivation system, dopamine is produced in sufficient quantity in our body. The prerequisite for this is, first, meaning. It has to be meaningful for me. There we have this meaning aspect again. The second point is desirability. It has to be desirable for me. And the third point is achievability. I have to have the feeling that I can manage it. If only one of the prerequisites isn’t fulfilled, the motivation system can’t be activated. If it’s that simple, how can it then be explained — and I think this is an important question in this company context too — that so many efforts, for example in companies, come to nothing? For this I have to look at and also understand the response properties of dopaminergic neurons in the brain, or put differently, it’s about the expectation of reward. If the expectation, especially now when it comes to motivation from outside, if the expectation regarding the reward is fully and completely met, then the deviation signal is zero. Conclusion: we shouldn’t reward anything that’s already expected, because it’s considered a given and accordingly has no effect. Or, if the expectation regarding the reward is surprisingly exceeded, then it leads to a strong impulsive activation of the neurons. Conclusion: we should therefore rely on surprises that come unexpectedly or turn out even bigger than expected. And the third variant is, if the expectation regarding the reward is undercut or not met, then the deviation signal is negative. Conclusion: we should never make promises we don’t keep. And that makes it clear why many efforts within the framework of New Work discussions and activities don’t have the desired effect. Fruit baskets, free coffee, table football and so on can help make the atmosphere at the workplace more pleasant, which is certainly not wrong either and makes an important contribution to the whole in the context of company culture development. But regarding activating the individual’s motivation system for more individual performance, they miss the intention behind it. So, I don’t know, do you want to say something about that?
Raphael, gladly. Yes exactly, that’s the exciting topic. And the follow-up substance that comes out of that is GABA acid, or butyric acid, which gives us the necessary relaxation once we’ve enjoyed the anticipation and enjoy having experienced something pleasurable and have this “wow, that’s great” feeling. What I’d also like to point out is simply how sensitive this reward system is. That means we can really shoot this system down or bring it down through all sorts of things, through too much work, through too much consumption of drugs of all kinds, through stress, through all sorts of things. That’s also the reason for all sorts of diseases of civilization, whether stress, whether burnout, whether diabetes. That goes pretty deep, this whole thing. That’s a super exciting topic, to handle it correctly. And especially where you’re headed now, Yasemin, in the transformation process with companies or such. Super exciting topic, super easy to explain, because people eventually understand it, simply by seeing through this lens what works and what doesn’t.
Yes, thank you. What do the others say? Marc, Jürgen?
Jürgen, gladly. Thank you, thank you, dear Raphael, to you. You triggered me, namely to bring it back around to the spontaneous interpretation I had of your title, dear Yasemin, for today, self-knowledge and meaningfulness. Namely my spontaneous question that arises from that. Do I first need an insight for something to be meaningful, or do I have to define something as meaningful to arrive at insight? That was, I’d like to position that now as a question, my reasoning for saying, yes, it’s a very challenging matter, and it’s basically carried within this tension, regardless of which side I approach from, that I say, I actually first have to arrive at the insight that this is true for me and that I fully stand behind it and that I can also justify why I stand behind it — open parenthesis, that’s equal to the meaning of the whole thing, generating insight, that all of this is carried by a corresponding motivation. And then we’re back at the topic. And the other topic — does motivation arise from that, or do I even need motivation first to want to arrive at insight? And now I’ll stop, because now comes the next term that actually becomes load-bearing for that. That’s the will to do something. But that would certainly blow the whole framework now. Thank you.
Wonderful, thank you so, so much. Yes, Marc, would you like to follow up too?
Yes, very gladly. I’ll bring in again, what for do I do this? And I sometimes have the problem, whenever we talk about motivation, I have a really great example, where I’d be back at meaningfulness again. If something seems meaningful to me, then I can do something even without motivation. And the best example of that is brushing your teeth. Brushing my teeth seems meaningful to me, everyone who’s been to the dentist knows that. So I do it every evening. Do I have to motivate myself to brush my teeth? No, I don’t have to. Sometimes in the evening I just want to fall into bed. I just want to sleep. Why do I brush my teeth? Am I motivated? No, I’m not motivated. I just want to sleep. I do it because it’s meaningful. And that would be this meaningfulness again, that would be a reason to do it, not the motivation. And the reason to do something would be, in that case, something like, what for do I do this? Is it meaningful for me? And another example is, when we always discuss that you have to motivate people. Not everyone does a job just because they’re motivated. And I can’t imagine that when we go out to eat on Saturday evening, and my favorite waiter served us, that he’s dancing in his restaurant and says, “hey, I’m so motivated, you’re about to go out, you’re going to the movies, you’re going to have another cocktail. But I’m having fun waiting tables here, because I’m so motivated, I enjoy this.” He also does that because he has a family to feed, because he can pay his rent. So he also asks himself, what for do I do this? But it’s not always motivation that’s the reason something makes us do it, but rather also, in that case, meaningfulness. Open parenthesis. What for do I do what I’m currently doing?
Yes, I’ll gladly give Raphael the first opportunity, then Jürgen, and then I’d like to follow up again too. Raphael.
Yes, thanks for steering the topic to dental hygiene. I can only tell you, that’s anchored in the nucleus accumbens too and releases dopamine. If you didn’t brush your teeth in the evening, you’d have a huge feeling of uncleanliness and dissatisfaction. That means it’s deeper in there. And that’s exactly part of your daily routine that wouldn’t make you satisfied. That’s the exciting thing. The other thing was, your waiter is also a really exciting story. I always enjoy the waiter who of course has to work to earn money, but who simply has the drive to serve me, because he simply notices, I’m a cool guest, he wants to give me and my wife a nice evening somehow, and then I’m also super happy to give him 20 percent tip if he’s managed that somehow, and it was something really special. And you simply notice, he’s earned it, there Yasemin’s reward system is again really, really important, as the Italian says, what’s the reason behind it, or what kind of reward is it then. And that’s exciting. So great topic today.
Yes, thank you, Jürgen.
Yes, first, dear Marc, that’s why I love you for your really down-to-earth, and that’s meant absolutely positively, examples you always bring up. Whereby in the first moment, but I want to go into this more, I say, yes, that I recognized this as meaningful at some point, that’s also a certain motivation for me. But what I’d now — and don’t be mad at me if I show up as an annoying nitpicker now — I’ll now answer my own question, which I posed in my last remark, myself. The question was, do I need an insight to make something meaningful, or do I need a meaning to generate an insight? And for me, basically the dominance — and maybe someone will pick this up as a discussion position — the dominance is clearly on the insight level, because it requires a cognitive achievement from within me, a self-conviction, and thereby also a strong — and now comes this term I mentioned earlier — a strong will to implement it. This also leads, in the negative case, to me doing something externally meaningless, but doing justice to my level of insight. I wanted to add that. Thank you.
Yes, thank you so, so much. So first back to the aspect Marc brought in. Here it’s also worth differentiating regarding motivation again. So motivation basically refers to us getting into movement. And something like, I don’t know, we often use the term in the context of, I don’t know, the room totally motivated me or something. Maybe we actually mean euphoric or something, so that we’re clean with the terms too, so to speak. So what’s actually meant by that? That means, if we go back again to what I picked up earlier, so to speak. There are three prerequisites to get our motivation system going at all. That means, meaning is important, that it’s desirable for me, and that I have the impression that it’s achievable. If one of these isn’t given, so just pure meaning alone doesn’t get me into action yet. So my motivation system, no dopamine gets released, and because no dopamine is released, there’s no anticipation, so to speak, and accordingly I don’t get into action either. I’d like to underline that again. That means, mere meaning-giving alone isn’t enough yet, and that explains, for example, when I hold some meetings or such in companies. And it’s explained to me really wonderfully why this is important now, that we have to do this. Then I understand that there’s a meaning behind it, so to speak. Yes, but it might not be desirable for me, maybe I don’t consider it achievable. Or I just, I can’t recognize this “what for,” not just regarding meaning-giving, but what’s the benefit for me? So not just pure meaning-giving, but what for do I do this? What’s the benefit for me, viewed individually too? And if various components don’t come together in their complexity here, so to speak, then I don’t get into action. So that’s one thing. The other thing, which you also brought into the room, Jürgen, I didn’t even dismiss that as a question in quotes, or locate it for myself, because basically I thought, from my perspective, you already said in your formulation earlier, that it’s basically actually irrelevant which direction we come from, so to speak, whether it comes from right to left or from left to right. Insight plays a role in every case from my perspective. But what comes first, and it seems to be a kind of cycle, so to speak, so the question is whether it even makes sense to think about that linearly. And I know you like to do that very much, because you like to break that down into processes, so to speak. But humans, also our brain structure, and also when we look at motivation and so on, we’re not wired linearly, and that’s why, even though it’s always nice to provide certain explanations, so to speak, to try to think about it linearly, but then not to remain stuck in this linear thinking, but actually also to assume that we simply always function circularly. Jürgen, what would you like to say about that?
There’s a saying that just spontaneously came to me. I don’t remember anymore who it’s from. But I agree with you completely, what you’re saying, dear Yasemin. For me linear thinking is something I’ve also repeatedly used as such in my job. I’ll say now, an offer, or also a provocation, because in my view it’s based on these two essential criteria, namely logic on one side and a structure on the other, on one hand and on the other hand. That means, I make myself comprehensible through the structure, and I make myself relatively irrefutable through the logic I convey. But I agree with you, as I said, completely, that there are quite a few deviations, detours and also wrong paths from that. Otherwise the saying that comes to mind, which I think sums that up quite well, wouldn’t be, “I’m not an elaborate book, I’m a human being in their contradiction.” And that’s basically, more or less, also the question for me, or the answer to the question of origin, what comes first? Meaning or insight? Thank you.
Yes, thank you so, so much. And I don’t want to be misunderstood either. So I also think it’s very helpful to keep thinking in processes, to think linearly too, because in many places, for example, it also helps to take things apart and remove the complexity, so linearity helps to remove complexity, so to speak, but then, in the second step, to reintroduce complexity again, so not to leave out this last step, that’s also important for me at this point. So it certainly makes sense to think linearly first, to then pick up complexity again. And I’d like to pick up various points from the chat again here, and you can gladly decide where and how we might want to make cross-connections here again too. Maybe there’s something that moves us again. First from Ari, knowing yourself and your feelings is human growth. Achieving is success, not growth. I’m not quite sure now whether “success” or maybe something else was meant. So maybe a quick note here, Ari, could you add that in again. That might be helpful here, just to make sure. Sometimes you type quickly and autocorrect turned it into something you maybe meant differently, so we can be sure the correct thing is really in there. Then Heike also wrote, meaningfulness also has to overcome my habits. My actions probably don’t spring from meaningful doing, but from a deep will. And then we have “will beats meaningfulness” as another point. There’s meaning and purpose, and there’s also pleasure and joy. Sometimes that might be in contradiction. And I also don’t understand internal and external meaning, so the giving of meaning from outside, the giving of meaning from inside. Is that even separable, that’s a question in this context. And then we also have, loss equals losing the pleasure. And I think that referred to Heike’s brushing-teeth example, the aspect of habit. And then we also have from Ulle, do you mean engaged or motivated, in my view that generally relates to actions. So, and now I’ll just leave it up to you where you might want to dock in again, before we slowly move into the closing round. Marc, Jürgen, Raphael.
Marc, gladly. Marc, gladly. This is a room of love today. I love you too, Yasemin, for your summary and for the clarity you brought again. With the “what for do we do this? It has to make sense for us, it has to be desirable, it has to be achievable.” And I can remember these three points most easily by saying again, what for do I do this? And it became even clearer in the company context, so if a team is involved and I’m a manager, then it doesn’t mean, why should they do that for me, why should they do that for my company, but rather I have to make sure that everyone individually knows, or ideally is fully aware of, what for they’re doing it. Because only if they know what for they’re doing it, do we as a team together have the chance to reach the goals we’ve set. Thank you for your summary, Yasemin.
Gladly. Jürgen, Raphael, any further additions, thoughts on what’s come up?
Thank you, dear Marc. I don’t have anything to add to that, because I fully stand behind you, and I say the same about today’s discussion, although — allow me this little jab — my question wasn’t answered, but I have to be honest, I’m not clear myself either on what comes first? Insight or meaningfulness? And the question above that, do the two even stand in a meaningful connection at all? That’s also still a topic for me now. Thank you.
I can’t tell you with certainty, Jürgen. I would claim, yes, that would be my tendency to say, insight comes first. At the end of the day I’m back at a chicken-or-egg phenomenon, but I think the tendency does lean toward insight first, because insight can, for example, also presuppose that I have a certain clarity. So especially when we talk about the question of meaning, meaning presupposes, for example, that I know myself, know what my values are and so on and so forth. And that has to do with insight too. And only once that’s given can I then, in the next step, so to speak, also go into an action. Or, well, and if I now try to approach it the other way around, I’ve now tried to play through various examples in my head, I have the impression that even if you have the feeling you’re coming from the other side, insight always has to come first in order to then call up the consequence. But that’s a thesis for now, everyone can let that resonate for themselves and also play it through with various examples, to gladly check it for themselves too, so to speak. And in doubt, we’ve just left a question unanswered in the room. That reminds me now of the situation, I’ve shared this with you before, I learned most in lectures where the questions weren’t answered, but instead further questions were always just asked again and again. I think that gives room for new insights too.
Raphael, do you have anything else you’d like to add before we go into the closing round?
Yes, I just thought of a word for Jürgen. It makes sense to move. I don’t think anyone would question that. So if you run a marathon without warming up or such, you’ll experience a huge physical disaster. And then you come to the insight, yes, it makes sense to move, but it also makes sense to think about how you move. And the chicken-or-egg thing is exactly right, exactly. That’s true. And so, which side does it come from?
Yes, wonderful. And Seren also writes, if you don’t even know why you exist, meaning doesn’t provide a solution. I find that exciting too. Yes wonderful. Yes, then I think we’ve gathered quite a bit again today. I found it very, very exciting, and I’m really curious about our joint closing round. Is there something you’re taking away for yourselves or want to highlight from the room today, and then I’ll gladly announce tomorrow’s room too. Marc, Jürgen, Raphael, gladly in that order.
Well, I came into the room already motivated and I’m leaving it now euphoric and with a good feeling. Thanks again for the term, dear Yasemin. Euphoric, fantastic. Have a wonderful day, all of you.
Yes, thank you too, Jürgen. A good start to Friday for me in any case, and I hope for you too. Heartfelt thanks for your contributions. With this difficult context. This conclusion at the end from you, dear Yasemin, and this little bit of the pendulum swinging toward insight-first, I’m very satisfied. And as I said, thank you for this hour. Until tomorrow. Ciao.
Thank you. Thank you too. Raphael.
Yes, thanks for the room too. That was really a nice start to Friday. And what came out of it is simply a lot of questions you can ask yourself, that you, when you’re inside yourself, simply ask yourself and try to answer. And then you’re often already a nice bit further along. And now we know how motivation works and how to move forward.
Yes, wonderful. Thank you so, so much to all of you for the very different perspectives, step by step here too, the feeling our way forward, and also the many, many contributions in the chat today, I find that really wonderful, because on one hand it lets you juggle mentally in different directions, and it also shows that it’s important to pick up different topics and focal points, and especially to really use a room like this to go in here mentally and sort out your own thoughts, because that’s ultimately also the room to draw insights from for yourself. And taking this time, I find that totally valuable at this point, to see what it is I’m taking away for myself now, what do I do with it, and if it’s simply, for now, that I might have a lot of question marks, because a lot of question marks are also very, very valuable — so you don’t have to feel, like I did back then, well, what’s the answer to that now, because a lot of question marks mean that irritation has occurred, and irritation always has something to do with learning. So in that sense I’m always thrilled when question marks simply remain sometimes too. And yes, I’m very, very grateful for the various points you brought in. Tomorrow we continue with insight and self-efficacy. How are self-efficacy and insight, or gaining insight, connected? That’s what we want to look at together tomorrow, before we then move on Sunday to our authors’ breakfast. Neuroleadership is the topic there. Dr. Franz Hütter will be there, who’s also deeply anchored in brain research, and I really value him and think it’s great that he’s taking the time to be here on Sunday. And we want to look at neuroleadership, or leadership, there too — namely leadership, both leading others and self-leadership. And I think that will also be really, really exciting, because we’ll be very close to research findings and so on, and always transferring that into practice too. So it’s definitely worth joining on Sunday too. And first I’m looking forward to hopefully welcoming you again tomorrow at eight, and then don’t miss the authors’ breakfast on Sunday under any circumstances. In that sense, I wish you all the best, whatever you have planned, and I’m already looking forward to tomorrow. Until then. Ciao.
