Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: How does our thinking shape our imagination, and how does that imagination shape the future we actually build? Dr. Yasemin Yazan, Marc (calling in from Tuscany), Alex and Sabine explore retiring abroad on a modest budget, the trap of “if-then” happiness, why muscles can grow from vivid mental training alone, and how holding a big-picture vision while genuinely savoring the detours beats rigid step-by-step planning.
Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.
Good morning, everyone. Today we’re continuing with thinking, imagination, and the future, and the question we want to explore is, how does our thinking influence our imagination and also the shaping of our future? So I’m curious what aspects come together today. Over the last few days we’ve looked at things quite specifically in some ways; now we’re opening it back up a bit to another level, so that tomorrow we can look at thinking and society — moving from the individual toward the group, or the community. That’s why today is thinking, imagination, and the future — how does our thinking influence our imagination and the shaping of our future? Still on the level of the individual, but we can slowly start opening it up. So I’m really curious what comes together today. You’re all very warmly invited to join and step into the exchange, so we can open up the reflection space together, look at different perspectives, and see where the room takes us today. As every morning, we’re recording the entire time, and anyone who joins automatically agrees that the whole thing gets recorded and published accordingly. Then we have three small room rules: a profile photo where you’re recognizable, your last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. Beyond that, you always have the option to communicate via chat too. As I said, provided that at least one person joins so we can open the reflection space. With that, I’ll mute myself briefly to see who’d like to join today.
Good morning, dear Sabine.
Good morning, dear Yasemin. Good morning, everyone. Well, this is a really difficult topic — is it aimed at me? At my family? At Germany? At the world? For me this morning it was like, this is such a broad topic. You just said we want to open up. So let me start with just myself. Thinking, imagination, and the future. Thinking — we’ve had that the last few days, weeks. I probably think all day long. I imagine things too, but how do I get into the future? The future, for me, is what isn’t quite real yet at the moment and lies somewhere ahead. Do I set goals, make a plan, or just live day to day? Not so simple. Oh, Marc is here — nice, Marc, come on up. Otherwise I feel so alone, and I think this is such a broad topic that it would be a shame if you left again like yesterday, right when I just joined.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Let’s start with ourselves, so to speak, and then we can gently open it toward family or society too, and we’ll definitely start on the level of the individual, and above all it’s about actually building bridges — how are thinking, imagination or the power of imagination, and shaping the future connected? You already said so beautifully, something about the future is directed forward — do I set goals, do I just live day to day, and so on. And here it’s maybe also really an anchor point for us, something we can hold onto, so to speak — what role does this power of imagination play, or what influence does it have, regarding the shaping of the future. Marc, good morning, maybe you’d like to jump in directly.
Good morning, I just wanted to look ahead — first, good morning to everyone, and buongiorno from Florence. I’m only briefly in the room and won’t be able to stay, since I jumped up to go see more of Tuscany. I also haven’t been able to prepare for the topic — I just briefly saw your headline, dear Yasemin, about thinking, imagination, and the future, and then, quite spontaneously, since we specifically talked about our future yesterday, I just thought about how, whenever I’m in Tuscany, I wish that when I’m old — once my partner can travel — I don’t want to spend my retirement in my apartment, looking out at the courtyard or the garden, with the only thought being, what are we eating tonight, or whatever — that would be too boring for me. And I’m well aware that if I want to shape my life differently, I won’t be able to manage on the standard pension we get — it just won’t be enough. So if I want to spend most of my life abroad, I need to start shaping my future now, and thinking, or reflecting, or imagining alone probably won’t be enough — because I just heard on the side that Sabine said we need to move into action, and if we have certain goals and wishes, unfortunately money is part of that too. Money isn’t the most important thing, but for certain wishes and dreams we have, a certain amount of money is part of it. And my wish and my vision is that as long as I’m mobile — and I see this right now with my father, how quickly that can change, that we’re no longer able to act — I need this opportunity, or rather, I need this opportunity to be able to fulfill even more things, to be mobile, flexible. And this decision, how I want to live in the future, I’ve already made. And these trips motivate me enormously, because I ask myself, do I really want this? Because when I’m back home, I know it gives me so much strength and inspiration — not for the money I currently need, because I’m incredibly happy, I have enough to eat, I have a wonderful apartment, I have everything I need, I don’t need that — but in order to be able to reshape my future later, to keep living independently, I’m compelled now to think about how I can achieve that. Because nobody in Italy — doesn’t have to be Italy, could be Portugal, could be France, could be anywhere in the world — but I’m pretty aware that I won’t get a call from a nice Italian saying, dear Marc, you’re a nice guy, you can live with me for free, eat for free, enjoy this place. And I’m always fascinated — and with that I’m done with my monologue — I’m always fascinated by how many beautiful places there are here in Europe. You don’t even need to fly long-haul to get somewhere; we have such beautiful old cities, and my heart is still so full from Florence — I studied here 33 years ago, went to language school here, and for the first time in 33 years I’m back in this truly enchanting, beautiful city, and I’m constantly amazed. And I always think, there are such wonderful things that affect us so differently in three dimensions than when we watch a film or look at a book with photos in it. Thanks for listening, and I wish you all a wonderful day, and warm greetings from Italy.
Yes, thank you so much, and warm greetings back. And above all I’d like to pick up on one aspect in particular, to look at it further together. You said imagination alone probably won’t be enough, and I immediately made a note — but without imagination, can I even get there, if I don’t have the imagination in the first place? So we’ve talked about — you basically, we’ve also talked about insight and things like that in the past in various rooms — meaning you basically thought something through, derived an insight, and regarding shaping the future, made certain considerations, and in that context you also had, partly visually — just in how you described it, we even got the visual image of that, do I then want, as you phrased it, do I want to just look at the garden, or do I want to think about what I’m eating for dinner, or what do I actually want — and then to consider, if I want to shape the future, or reshape it, then I need to think about that today. And that’s really the question, to what extent does this only work with imagination, you said it won’t work otherwise — but what happens without imagination, does it even work at all without imagination, so to speak? That’s a question we can open up too. Marc, would you like to say something before you head out?
Yes, exactly, it doesn’t work without imagination, and I’ve come to a new realization. I’ve long dreamed of being able to live again in a city like Florence or London, and through a conversation with a friend — because that costs a lot of money — the realization I now have is, you actually don’t need that much money. Unfortunately, for cities like Florence it’s not so easy, because we unfortunately have a very large startup company, Airbnb, and I heard from a friend that if you travel outside peak tourist times — and that’s my plan for old age, if I don’t travel during the big summer holidays, if I don’t travel during peak travel season — then these places, there are tons of houses standing empty, tons of houses empty. And I actually realized I can shape my life that way, because a friend told me his father lives in Spain for at least three months. And I thought, whoa, he must be doing well then — what did he do for work, living three months in Spain, that must cost a lot of money. And he said, no, it doesn’t cost him much at all — he researches it already in December, January, looks around at where he could go, and it turns out, of course you need the money too, but it’s possible to spend a month in the country of your choice for 400, 500, or 600 euros, if you don’t travel during peak season, and it’s not necessary — the line of thinking I had was wrong, because I was sure I’d never be able to buy an apartment in Florence, never be able to buy an apartment in London — but that doesn’t have to be necessary either, because the future, through new startups, has made it possible to travel without hotels too. There will be many, many new things, things that maybe don’t even exist yet, so that even on a modest budget, without having to be a millionaire, you can eventually afford a life abroad, if you go with the cycles and don’t need to live in a four- or five-star hotel, because you say, it’s more important to me to be outside, in Florence, in Italy — you’re outside anyway, so the hotel, in quotation marks, simply doesn’t matter, it’s just about having accommodation, being able to wash, do a bit of personal care. And that gave me a huge boost, solidifying this fantasy, this vision, that it’s now actually possible to live in such beautiful places in the world, to be there, without, as I said, this vision I had before of needing to have saved millions to own real estate here — because it also works without owning property.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and with that I’d like to bring in Alex. Good morning, glad you’re with us, dear Alex — what do you say about the topic?
Yes, good morning, a really exciting topic of course, and as Marc already said, imagination without action of course brings very little. You know yourself, I’m a fan of journaling, I’m a fan of visualization, of the law of attraction, but I’m not the type to say, okay, I wish for something now and just wait for it and then I’m totally disappointed because the universe doesn’t deliver — instead I say, I wish for something, and then I think about how I can optimize my thinking, my actions, my strategy for my life, for my business, whatever it is, so that this wish, this vision, actually comes true, actually happens. And then it gets into a kind of momentum, and then the focus is there. For me, for example, journaling right now — I’ve started a new journal again, where I ask, where do I want to go, where do I want to be, say, on December 31st of this year — I made a precise plan for that, and what do I need to do to get this vision rolling? Because that’s what it’s about — we need this vision and this focus first, so we can project all our energy onto it, so we can align all our energy toward getting there, and then a little push, and in most cases it works. Thanks for listening.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Maybe as a quick note here, for anyone who hasn’t been in the room for a while or is joining freshly today — we’re working through, or have already worked through, three different overarching themes in sequence. We started with reflection as the first theme, then we continued, and right now we’re on thinking, which we’ll wrap up over the coming days, and then we’ll open up the theme of action, so that in the final week we can also look at the connecting points between reflection, thinking, and action. So I think it’s great — we’d already said before that we’ll keep having connecting points, because you probably can’t view these things in complete isolation, but the overarching themes and the individual topic areas exist to reduce complexity, so to speak, at first. So I think it’s wonderful — you can see we’re slowly moving toward action now, and that there’s a really essential connection here too, that one won’t work without the other, so to speak. And today we’re actually going to focus on this aspect of imagination, the power of imagination, and shaping the future, without going too much into the details of action yet, so we can pick that up again in the action theme. And I found so many aspects you brought up really exciting already, especially the aspect of focus — meaning, because I imagine something directed toward the future, something happens with the focus that leads to certain things being set in motion, and I find that a really exciting aspect. Sabine, Marc, Alex, would you like to add to that?
Sure, Marc. Unfortunately I wasn’t there for the daydreaming topic. But I saw it, dear Yasemin, which topics you had, and I thought about what I’d say about daydreaming. That doesn’t exist for me at all — I don’t have daydreams. I’m occupied with completely different things during the day, but I always ask myself, what have I actually learned in recent years, and that’s a pretty brutal question I can ask myself — the most honest question, do I really want something? And that’s maybe also the question when I don’t move into action. Of course there are situations for me too where I don’t move into action, and then I always ask myself, quite brutally, do you really want that? And the simple and honest answer is, no, you don’t want it, otherwise you’d already have it. And thank goodness I can laugh about myself. There are many things where I don’t move into action, and where I say, well, there are dozens of reasons not to move into action, but the question, do I really want this — and I always notice in other situations how strong I am, how much energy I can bring to the table when it comes to, say, supporting my partner with peace and quiet in the apartment, or with new modes of transport I need, and so on. And when I really want to achieve something, I have so much energy that ten or fifteen hours just fly by, because it needs to be solved, or wants to be solved — not needs to, I don’t need to do anything, but I want to solve it. And then I always think, and this helps me enormously, hey, the potential is in you, you just have to bring it onto the street. And if certain topics haven’t been dealt with yet, then it simply seems that they’re not that important after all. And that’s why, for me, these trips are always there to gather ideas — I’ve said this before, I’m in the fortunate situation that I don’t need any vacation at all, I need these trips just to look for things I don’t even know I’m looking for yet, because I have such relaxed work that I’ve basically never had to go on vacation to get distance from work, because I’m totally relaxed already — instead I use these trips to see what possibilities exist. I don’t know which field, which industry I’ll be working in three years from now, and these trips come with the deepest gratitude, the deepest gratitude, because I also always see what impossible jobs there are — here in Florence, for example, taxis drive around with this piercing beep, this whistling sound, independent of anything, which also makes sense, so that the American and Japanese tourists here don’t get hit — it all makes sense, but I thought, that poor taxi driver, if he had to work eight hours a day, he must have to work, that can’t be a job someone chooses out of pure joy. And then I think, man, what a great job I have — when I close my office door, I hear at most birds, a few animals, in the morning a squirrel runs across my balcony, and I’m grateful for how good I have it, that I wouldn’t do that job, I’d go crazy. And for me these trips — I know this doesn’t directly relate to the topic — are simply input, I feed my brain with lots of images. A lot of people go on vacation — I know Jürgen is traveling right now too, he needs that silence, and when I see Jürgen’s pictures, I see pictures too, Tuscany pictures with wide landscapes and trees and forests — I don’t need that on vacation. On vacation, or on trips, I’m looking for excitement instead, I need the input, I need to talk to people in that country, I need to hear what they do for work, not because I want to do that job immediately, but because it’s really just food for my head, because I work from a home office and my contact with people happens only over the phone or here in Deep Talk Club, and due to the structure of my company I don’t have direct one-on-one contact. And for me traveling is an elixir of life — I don’t do it to gain peace and quiet, but simply to absorb many impulses, ones I don’t know I’m looking for, they just come flying to you. And yes, I’d just be repeating myself, but this vision, I always center on a vision, this feeling of taking it in, when you sit somewhere and feel the sun, when — it’s deep summer right now, thankfully it’s not this hot back home, I can’t stand that heat constantly either, but we currently have 28 degrees, you sit outside in October, can eat and drink outside, and this life that happens outdoors in the south, it’s just incredible, and then you think again, what do I actually need back in Germany — people there are so busy saving up money for their own property, because that’s supposedly important. Though if I were in Italy, I might think differently, because most of the time I’m outside, I really only need a bed to sleep in, as long as I’m still mobile and flexible — life happens outdoors in the south too, and these experiences are of course easier to absorb in 3D, if you want, than from books or films.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and you can see, on one hand, that imagination or the power of imagination can arise from different things — there are various influencing factors, so to speak, and it’s certainly also a matter of personality type. And by the way, you didn’t miss anything yesterday, because the topic we opened up — I think it was a nice topic — but nobody joined for the first 16 minutes, which led me to actually close the room 16 minutes past 8. So you didn’t miss anything there. And regarding the aspect of daydreams, that too can be interpreted quite differently — what daydreams can be. We unfortunately didn’t get the chance to look at that yesterday, as I said, and it can range from certain things I do during the day that give me impulses, so that I start generating images in my head, all the way to trance — that I might deliberately put myself into that state through a trance state or similar. Or, as you just said, traveling for you, for others it might be a walk or similar, where lots of images pop up, where connections are made in the brain, so to speak, which then lead to this power of imagination developing, directed toward the future — of course these could also be images of the past, but also toward the future, so to speak, opening up one stream of thought or another, and maybe shaping something here too, first in the form of, say, images, and then we’re back at the next step, what happens to the focus because of that, and how does one thing or another change later in action, or what might need to change later in action so I can get there. So really exciting points in this connection to look at. Sabine, would you like to add to that too?
Yes, I’m already almost on vacation in Florence, and I’m on vacation with you, Marc. I have a bit of a problem, though, saying imagination, future — if I think too far ahead, it turns out differently than I planned anyway. So from that angle I have a bit of an issue — and Alex, you were very detailed, focus, I go there and then I do this. For me it’s more like I have several roads I’m planning simultaneously, and I prioritize them for myself, or sometimes other people prioritize for me — and if something else comes up, something else gets pushed back. Yes, that’s probably also a problem of focus, but it’s probably also a problem of my own stuff, what I consider important, and if something important comes in, I still keep planning, but others maybe have too much fear of that instead.
Yes, that’s an exciting point, and maybe here too, let’s pick up an example that’s maybe not so much from everyday life, but especially when we think in the direction of pioneers or such — directed toward the past, there were people who, for example, imagined, in the sense of, it must somehow be possible for us humans to fly too, and eventually they managed to actually find ways to do it. Today it’s relatively taken for granted, in quotation marks, that if I want to cover longer distances somehow, I can use a plane for that. Back then, people couldn’t imagine that at all in some cases, and that’s why they found this idea absolutely absurd, in quotation marks. And I find it exciting that you bring up this aspect with the planning, or different roads, or along the lines of, does it even make sense, raising this question of meaning again — doesn’t everything turn out differently than planned anyway? So I’m curious what the others say about this too, maybe also with this example I brought up — to what extent does this vision or this power of imagination ultimately have an influence, or is it not all just chance in quotation marks, ultimately, so to speak, and I don’t really need to plan at all, because basically I don’t know what tomorrow will bring either, and priorities constantly change because of that too, and so on. What do you all think about that?
If I may add something to that — oh, sorry. Go ahead, Alex, and then Marc. Okay, first, what Marc said earlier is so incredibly important, so I’d like to pick that up again — do I really, really, really, really want this? I always do that — why do I want this, what do I need for it, what price do I have to pay for it, and then it often turns out that I say, no, actually I don’t want this at all, maybe the inspiration came from outside, or it’s an old wish I have, because goals are allowed to change too, wishes are allowed to change too, and a focus is allowed to change too. And if you have the big picture — and this goes to you, Sabine — something always gets in the way, life gets in the way, and if you leave everything up to chance, in my opinion, you also get pushed back and forth. If you say, okay, I have the big picture in view, I want to achieve this and that, like, for example, Marc with his retirement in Tuscany or wherever, you can still interact and say, okay, I have a small disruption right now that’s not moving me forward on this straight path to the goal, but I don’t lose sight of the big picture. And I find that important, because if I really want something, then I’ll manage it, and I won’t let myself get distracted, and it might take longer if some intermediate phases come in, and that’s absolutely fine — but if my body and my mind are aligned with my wish, and I really, really, really want it — not just some brief brain fart, but I really want it — then it works, in my opinion. Thank you.
Wonderful, and I like “brain fart.” Let’s have Marc respond to that, and then continue with Sabine. Marc?
I have one more point that’s just important to me — we’re talking about the future, and I saw something really great, really great, and I read it from the Shaolin — someone who lived with the Shaolin monks said they’re quite astonished by us, by the Germans, or Europeans. Our entire life gets built around, we have to save money so we have a good pension, we have to provide for the future — but the only question is, are you happy today? And I’ve let go of that. Of course I hope to experience the future, but if I don’t, then I need to be happy today. And isn’t it crazy — I know so many stories from my parents, a tax advisor who worked 20 hours a day, left each of his children a house, and then he died, and the children certainly weren’t happy their dad was dead — he never got anything out of his own life. So now life gets shifted into the future. What I want is the word happiness. If I think I’ll only be happy in the future once the house is paid off, once the RV is there, once this or that is done — that’s just complete madness. I’m happy every day, I’m happy in Hürth too with my cup of coffee, and if I don’t get to experience the future, then I was still totally happy, because I’m happy right now, today. And that’s the reason I went self-employed — I’m spoiled, in the sense that I can no longer subordinate myself in a team, I don’t want to work with people anymore and take pointless instructions. I’d rather manage with less, but be happy every day. And still, to stay on topic, there’s a vision, and if this future exists, then I could imagine doing something else in the future too — but this future and this vision don’t depend on me only having a fulfilled life then; I already have that now, and if I still have it in five years, all the better. There can’t be a bigger gift than getting to take part on this beautiful planet for as long as possible.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, for bringing in this aspect of the here and now too. By the way, I had a bad dream last night and woke up because of it, and because of the dream I felt the need to check on my mother, whether everything was okay, and was very relieved that everything actually was fine. And that puts you quite quickly into this here and now too, and grateful for the “small things” in life, in quotation marks — and one doesn’t exclude the other, they’re just different components that play a really essential and important role for us. And I’m sure, Sabine, sorry that I steered it in this direction, going back to the questions, along the lines of, so should I not plan anything at all then, because it’s all going to happen the way it happens anyway — I of course sharpened that a bit, to open up different thought impulses. I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way either, and now I’m curious what you’d like to add too.
Yes, that’s exactly what I wanted to push back on — I don’t think I can live life without any planning at all. That’s not really what I meant either. I meant — Marc actually put it a bit more precisely — that I’m also very happy in the now, but maybe scaled back a bit, because especially with my self-employment I think I often put too much into it, and I was maybe too stressed myself, and now I say, yes, the self-employment is running, I’m content, it could sometimes be more, but that’s all okay. So I do try to plan in that direction too, but if something else comes in, like now with our Mexican exchange student, suddenly a few things change a bit, other things interfere, and then I say, well, that’s just how it is, I’ll take a little detour — but that doesn’t mean I have a problem with not planning further. Or maybe it’s also simply because, well, if one child is in Berlin, one in Madrid, one is currently at some event, and then says, Mom, can I just quickly… of course it’s a question, do I allow that or not — but I do allow it, because it’s actually fun for me too, and I like supporting the kids in that regard. From that angle you probably have to say, that’s just my own thing, where I place priorities, and whether I have just one priority, or say I have several roads, like I said earlier, and I can’t be on all of them at 100 miles an hour simultaneously — that just doesn’t work. And so I just sometimes say, okay, then we take a small step back here, but also tell the kids or whoever, not today, today this is my priority. And I think I’ve learned quite a lot recently, that I manage much healthier for myself by occasionally pulling the handbrake a bit and turning left or right.
Yes, absolutely, and imagination or the power of imagination doesn’t necessarily have to mean that the future can only be shaped in one direction from it, in quotation marks, along the lines of, I imagine something, then I plan it, and then I implement it. I also found it very interesting that so many aspects came up, along the lines of, I can’t imagine this or that, and we can go down this track too — meaning, if, say, Marc can’t imagine only looking at the garden in the future and thinking about what’s for dinner tonight, then that probably won’t be his future either. So it becomes clear that there’s definitely a certain connection here, but that doesn’t necessarily mean, conversely, that every image or every thought that comes up has to result in a shaping of the future. But if I can’t imagine something, it’s very unlikely that it will end up being exactly the future that unfolds. Sabine, go ahead.
Yes, I have a really concrete example, because examples are always good. We’ve talked a few times now about how a lot of people have second homes on Mallorca — they’re there again right now for three weeks, and I can’t imagine that at all, for example. I love going on vacation, I go on vacation a lot, but I couldn’t imagine buying a little house somewhere on Mallorca. Not because I couldn’t or wouldn’t want to afford it, but because I’d simply say, then you’re tied down and have to keep going back there. I actually want to go everywhere in the world at some point, and it can turn out differently each time. Like, for example, we’re going to Herfsteln on the Mecklenburg Lake District — certainly not because that’s my top wish, but because I said, we can’t exactly charge our exchange student a fortune, so we’re going there, and I’m looking forward to it. It’ll certainly be a different kind of vacation, and if I had my finca on Mallorca now, I’d probably feel forced to always go there. And that’s what I mean by this certain flexibility — things can turn out differently, and that’s why I actually want to… I’m with Marc on this, I want to live well in old age too, so the money should be available, but I don’t want to have my finca on Mallorca.
Yes, wonderful, and this example also shows, or we can connect it to this aspect — I discover a lot of things where I might not even expect them, in quotation marks, and that’s why we also had brain training, or thinking training, as a room topic — meaning, engaging with things that might represent a deviation, and looking at what discoveries or insights might result from that, ones I maybe didn’t even expect. That could be while traveling, it could be different cultures, it could be pursuing a hobby, just out of the desire to try something new — these are all very different things, and it can also simply happen while shopping, in quotation marks. So here too, we’ve talked about conscious and unconscious again — we can quite consciously steer things in one place or another, but we also have many things that just happen on their own, or happen completely unconsciously, and bringing that into awareness, for example through reflection or similar. Alex, you also brought a comment into the chat about these if-then constellations — would you like to pick that up, or add something else?
Yes, gladly. I think it was Marc who said we always like to postpone our lives to, once I have this and that, then I’ll be happy, then I can do this, then this and that will be possible — and that’s so fatal, because I myself, in May — you probably know about the terrible accident I had — I had to learn to walk again and everything, and I experienced how quickly such an if-then can turn into a catastrophe, and I decided for myself, no, I’m not waiting for an if-then anymore, because at some point an if-then becomes a too-late. And so, keep the focus in mind, but don’t just work toward the goal — also use the moments, and really savor and consciously experience the beautiful paths and even the detours, and think, okay, well, that’s just how it is now, that I took a wrong turn, that I got unplanned visitors — but I enjoy it, and I still keep my big wish in view, but I don’t forgo doing anything because of an if-then mentality, saying, once I have a partner, then I’ll be happy, once I’ve lost 30 kilos, then I can find a partner, once I have this and that… we really urgently need to let go of that, because life can be over so extremely fast. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and that immediately brings up the next term for me, namely the aspect of trust in this context. So on one hand, enjoying this moment — you phrased it so beautifully, savoring and consciously experiencing even the detours — and then I come to this concept of trust. What role does trust play in this context too, being able to live in this moment, and also regarding the future or shaping the future, that it’s okay, that the detours are okay too, and that there’s maybe simply a reason for that — and here we’re back in reframing too, so to speak, always deliberately looking at things from this positive perspective, and, for example, not getting upset that certain things turned out differently than planned or intended, but instead, on this path, staying in the here and now and continuing to discover, looking at what I can take away for myself, or what insights I might derive, and what’s positive about what’s happening around me right now, consciously perceiving and experiencing that, as you put it so nicely, Sabine, Marc. Alex wanted to add something regarding the aspect of trust too.
Sure, go ahead, Marc — you’re very quiet right now, dear Marc.
I just wanted to agree with Alex, what she said about if-then — I really liked that.
Wonderful, thank you so much. Sabine, would you like to add to this aspect of trust too?
Yes, the if-then thing, I can only agree with Alex there too. And trust — I’m not entirely sure what you mean, whether you mean trust in myself, or that I say, on my path, thinking, imagination, future, I trust — I’m not quite with you yet on what you mean by trust, maybe you could ask again briefly, then I’ll say something more about it.
Yes, there can definitely be different levels here. On one hand, trust in myself might play a role here too. What I meant was more the trust that it’s okay, this letting go, so to speak, and not this cramped, tense — here we’re back at this if-then constellation, this “this and that has to happen for this and that to happen,” and I do the corresponding planning and hold on quite doggedly to pursuing one goal after another — but instead, everything that happens along the way, in quotation marks, just a bit, as Alex phrased it, savoring and consciously experiencing even the detours too.
And that brought me to this trust — I could call it trust in the universe, that it also has its rightness, in quotation marks, or will have its meaning, which I might only be able to evaluate in hindsight, for example, and someone else might not use the word universe, but trust, maybe in a religious context or similar. I don’t know if that helps, dear Sabine.
Yes, that helps me a lot.
Yes, you’re completely right, and I think — no, I’m of the opinion that for me, with advancing age, trust in that regard has become much stronger, in the sense that I just tell myself, well, it’ll keep going anyway. And I see this right now with the kids, who are right in the middle of their studies, or whatever — you want to study psychology, put yourself under pressure and get a good high school diploma. There I find there’s almost too little trust in that regard, so I try to actually tell the kids, you’ll manage it, what’s all this about? And if not, then it’ll be a different path. So I think the kids are still a bit more, even though they have full enjoyment of life, they still put themselves under more pressure because they still have their goals. With the older ones, at least the ones I’ve already sorted out, I’m a step further, and I try now to really focus more on things like mindfulness and vacations, and it has to somehow… it should be fun for me that it works out. I don’t put myself under so much pressure anymore about that. I have a certain trust there already, even though, sticking with Alex’s point, it’s kind of like a low blow from the left or the right — I mean, I see it in my circle of friends now, one person or another got cancer, or things happen so fast that something comes up. That’s why I say this “today” too.
Yes, absolutely. And here we might distinguish something further — I find this if-then constellation really, really important in this context, because through the way we’re socialized, we get shaped or conditioned in this direction quite early on. You surely know this too, maybe from your own experience or from your surroundings — how often does a child hear, relatively early on, if you finish this or that, then you can have ice cream, or play with your friends, or whatever. So these if-then constellations get conditioned into us relatively early, and they somehow get connected with love, happiness, recognition, or whatever, so that we often fall prey to a misconception, along the lines of, something like happiness or love or whatever, I’d first have to earn, or it lies somewhere in the future. That means I need to do certain things to get there. And on the other hand, there’s this aspect of the power of imagination — and here I’ll open up another aspect, which we’ve also talked about before — our brain can’t distinguish between what lies in the future, or is in the present now, or is in the past. That means, I once brought in a study as an example in this context — if I set certain parameters, meaning if I know how it works, and then mentally imagine certain things, for example that I’m training something specific — and I’m not actually training any muscles through movement or anything, but I imagine it, I feel myself into it — then it was found, fascinatingly, that corresponding muscles actually get built here too, just as if I did real training with movement and so on to train those muscles. Not exactly identical, but only a small deviation, in quotation marks. And here we’re back at this aspect of the power of imagination — on one hand it’s not about if-then constellations, and at the same time it’s worth picking this up again and showing what impact this “I imagine something” actually has — and not just in the sense of a few images, but if I really set the corresponding parameters, that I emotionally immerse myself in it, and, and, and — that something can develop from that which otherwise wouldn’t develop. Maybe we want to look at this differentiation again. Sabine, Marc, Alex, would you like to add to that?
Sure, go ahead, Sabine. Yes, I think the creative aspect is really important, especially just going in a direction where you actually say, this isn’t really my thing, or this doesn’t appeal to me at all. For example, when we had my daughter in Berlin, there was Berlin Art, and we went to all sorts of galleries. I mean, I did an art specialization for my high school diploma, and I don’t want to say I was completely uninterested, but it was a totally different world, and we really enjoyed just spending the day that way. And I think something like that is really important — taking off your blinders every now and then and saying, just look at this, let yourself be surprised, let yourself drift a bit. That’s maybe something we recommend a little too little. I see this right now with our Mexican exchange student too, who has a completely different pace than we do. My son said yesterday, Mom, are people in other countries sometimes as fast as we are? I said, what do you mean by that? Well, when he looks at him, he does everything so, so slowly, whether we’re sitting at a meal or riding bikes — he just has a different tempo. And so I say, yes, I think we Germans, I’ll say it now, have always been very focused, we want to move forward, but whether that’s always good for us, I don’t know.
Interesting observation. Go ahead, Alex.
Yes, thank you, thank you for that setup, Sabine. I find that we Germans in particular are always in this state of rushing. I come from Swabia, and there it’s like, if you’re not working, then you’re nothing — if you’re not somehow busy, then that’s really, really bad. And I think that’s also a really strong German mentality — this guilty conscience when you indulge in doing nothing, or in something that’s just fun. Thankfully it’s getting better, because the following generations are now simply saying, hey, sorry, but we’re alive too, we’re not just here to work. But that’s also a really, really difficult topic, this always wanting more. Of course, we’re also a country that has produced a lot, that has achieved a lot of innovations. But at what cost — and that’s what I find so important, taking new paths sometimes, letting things slide sometimes, being able to rest a bit sometimes. Because only when you give your mind rest — and Yasemin said something great earlier — you can steer your body through your mind too, you can achieve so much through your mind, but that only works if you get out of a rushed state and really get into flow. And that should really be our goal — getting into flow more often, and also doing nothing more often. Nothing — not looking at your phone, not looking at anything else, just doing nothing, and maybe really, in quotation marks, stupidly looking out into the world, looking at the water, looking into the forest, and letting the mind come to rest so it gains new strength again. That was my closing word, and thank you for listening.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and this aspect in particular brings me to something that just came up yesterday, quite recently. This affects not just ourselves, but also encounters we have. You just said so beautifully, letting things slide sometimes. And in personal encounters too, whether that’s networking, business, or however personally, in private life — here too, not always thinking only in terms of opportunities, trying to extract the maximum out of something, including monetarily, but — and here we’re back at human encounters — also just maybe enjoying the moment. We had a situation where someone was actually offered something free of charge, and the person didn’t see that at all and tried to somehow turn it into something else, steer it onto a different track to make money from it themselves, even though it was about something free of charge in that context, and wove that together in a really strange way, which led, as a consequence, on one hand to a brief moment of annoyance, an emotional reaction, and then, after reflection, to actually ending this relationship for good at this point. So this always wanting to extract a benefit in various contexts, instead of just letting an encounter be an encounter, in quotation marks, is maybe also a nice example in this context. And you can transfer that to many other contexts too, whether that’s traveling, whether that’s a private encounter within the family with known friends and so on, or similar, or in a business relationship. Then we’re back at this situational awareness too, that you don’t lose sight of this mindfulness, in quotation marks, amid all the planning and goal-pursuing, so to speak, like a bull in a china shop somehow breaking everything that was actually already built up — I find that a really interesting aspect in this context too. And, sure, Sabine, go ahead, and then you can add your closing word too. And then Marc and Alex — I understood the closing word was already included. Sabine?
Yes, I just wanted to say, great room, great direction this developed in, not far from mine at all, I have to say. And I wanted to also quickly say my closing word, because I’m expecting to rush again to a call at 9. But I have to say, I found this a wonderful room. Marc, I’d like to wish you a really great vacation in Florence. I wish you all fun. Bye.
Thank you so much. Marc has said Tuscany, I believe, by now. Marc, can you add your closing word too?
We can’t hear you right now — just background noise, dear Marc. I think that’s the network right now. No, unfortunately it’s not working, dear Marc. What a shame. Maybe you can briefly write in the chat while I wrap up the room, so to speak, and also make the room announcement for tomorrow.
Yes, thank you so much to you too, dear Marc, for joining from Tuscany, so to speak — I find that wonderful, and of course wish you a wonderful vacation too. Thank you so much, dear Sabine and Alex, really great points came together too, and to all the listeners and everyone who contributed in the chat too. I think we opened up a truly colorful bouquet here today, and you can see there are an incredible number of connecting points in all sorts of directions, and that it’s not about exclusively prioritizing or favoring one thing over another, but that it’s an aspect — something like the power of imagination viewed as a whole, or holistically, without losing sight of the other aspects. But that ultimately, without the power of imagination — if I can’t imagine it, then it probably won’t happen either — that’s an important aspect too. But that the power of imagination doesn’t necessarily mean, I plan and do and then implement it — instead, imagination and the power of imagination can also develop in moments where I might not expect it at all. That’s why we have these connections here with traveling, maybe movement or other things, or also quite consciously steering, for example going into a trance state or similar. That means I can quite consciously go into it, I can simply perceive moments where maybe the power of imagination suddenly plays a role, in a way I wouldn’t have expected at all — images that come up, and then looking at what I do with that. And that this doesn’t always have to result in planning — accepting the detours that arise along the way, enjoying that too. So there were so incredibly many facets in there today that I also find really, really valuable. So, from my side too, I think this was a really wonderful room. And with that, I’m looking forward to turning our gaze tomorrow to thinking and society — how does our thinking shape the society we live in, that’s the question we want to explore tomorrow. I already said earlier today that we’re slowly opening up the topic, from the individual toward family, friends, acquaintances, business life, and so on, and then also toward society, that we now want to slowly open these doors, to see what role this plays in this opened-up context. And in the meantime, Marc took the opportunity to write in the chat too — glad you’re feeling better, Alex. It was nice talking and exchanging with you all, thank you so much for that. And I’m definitely looking forward to hearing you all again tomorrow morning at 8 here at Deep Talk, provided you have time and interest, to look together at thinking and society and see what develops from this room together. With that, I wish you all a wonderful day, whatever you have planned. Warm greetings to the different regions of the world, and I find it so lovely that we have this opportunity, with digitalization, to simply connect from different places, and that this is actually being used — that’s amazing. So, with that, until then. Ciao.
