Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: How does violence show up in literature, and what can we learn from violent themes in books? That’s the question we explore in Room #931 of the Deep Talk Club, under our overarching theme of “Power & Violence.” Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…
Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.
A very warm good morning, I hope you can hear me. Maybe a hand-raise emoji would be really helpful here, since we’re on the road today, so a few things are a bit different. And yes, an emoji would be great, just so I can tell whether I’m audible to you. That would be great. Can you hear me right now? Yes, wonderful, great. Warm greetings from Sofia this morning. So it’s a bit “chaotic” today. Timing-wise, we only just managed to get live at all, even with some background noise. On one hand, we always have to figure out where we can charge the car, and here that’s currently only possible at a shopping center, so to speak. In the parking garage, the car is too loud, even if I stayed inside it. And right now I’m up on the terrace, so I can talk to you. And unfortunately some background noise can’t quite be avoided here. But nonetheless, we’re at least live, and we have the chance to get into an exchange today too. That’s also why we’re starting a bit late. In any case, I’m really looking forward to talking about violence in literature with you today, and I’m really, really curious, because our question is: how does violence show up in literature, and what can we learn from violent themes in books? And that’s what we want to look at today, which means today I’m relying on some support from your side too. If anyone in the room today would like to help steer the moderation a bit, I have absolutely no objection to that, or simply to say, I’ll support you by being here, chiming in, and taking on a larger share of the talking, so it’s easier for you to mute yourself from time to time, so we don’t have too much background noise — that would be really, really welcome. With that, you’re all very warmly invited to join in and raise your hand to step into the exchange with me this morning, and let’s just see together where the room develops. As every morning, today too there’s basically no right or wrong — it’s about looking together, in exchange, at where the room develops. And accordingly, I’m really, really curious who’d like to support me here this morning and join in. I’d be really happy about that. I’ll mute myself for a moment to see who’d like to join.
Let me briefly repeat the room title and the subtitle we prepared today: “Violence in Literature,” and “How does violence show up in literature, and what can we learn from violent themes in books?” That’s what we want to look at today. I’m dialing in from Sofia today, so there are a few circumstances that make this a bit more difficult with the background noise. I hope we can still manage it reasonably well. I’d be really happy if someone joined in, so we can open up this reflection space as quickly as possible today. The first thing I’d like to bring in as an impulse is what classically comes to mind for me right away on the topic of literature and violence. We touched on this topic briefly on the side before — what immediately comes to mind for me is this aspect of fairy tales. Maybe very few people know that fairy tales were originally told to adults. They were stories told to adults. And if you look at this historically, there were even times when certain stories had to be altered so they’d even be accessible to children at all. That means we have them today in a noticeably watered-down form. Nonetheless, if you look more closely, you’ll definitely find that some of it is still quite violent. You can feel however you want about that — personally I don’t find that ideal for children. Which is why our child, Elias, essentially grew up without fairy tales for the most part. We preferred instead — and this brings us maybe to another aspect from literature — to pick up fables. And I find fables wonderful, using the analogy from the animal world, to pass certain things on to children, wrapped in stories, for example. That’s a first impulse that comes to mind for me right at the start, and I’m really curious what other aspects might come up too. Maybe you see fairy tales or fables differently, or have other examples we can bring in here. So, what do you think — who’d like to start today’s reflection space with me?
A very warm good morning, dear Jürgen.
Hello, good morning, dear Yasemin. Lovely to hear you, and thank you so much for making this room happen anyway, I find that absolutely wonderful and remarkable. And that’s why I jumped in to support you, so to speak, even though this isn’t quite my usual topic, but it really interests me. And you already mentioned that we’d had a room before on the topic of violence that dealt with art, with the expert round — I unfortunately can’t remember the name anymore, but it touched on various aspects of the depiction of violence in visual art. And I took away quite a few triggers from that. And for today’s topic, we essentially have the same underlying, meta-level basis — violence in art, in this case in the written art of literature. And, as usual, I’ll follow your subtitle — I might get to the fairy tale topic later, but let’s start with the subtitle. You asked the question, how does violence show up in literature, as a first sub-question? And basically, for me, after thinking about it, what’s the difference to visual art, for instance? Literature is, first of all, a different kind of representation of violence, namely in word, or in writing. And we once defined that language, or there was a possible connection between language and thought, that language is the actual realization of thought. So, in literature, for me, quite simply, and maybe even as a provocation for a discussion with others, that puts a violent way of thinking onto paper, if we assume that language is the consequence, or the expression, of thought. With visual arts it’s different, in my view, though, as I said, I’m a layperson there — we take that in through our sense of sight, and form images, reflect on images, and translate them into certain connections. But with written language, this instrument, when it comes to violence and the depiction of violence, is, for me, a way of making thoughts, attitudes, intentions, or motivations transparent, which I can absorb much more directly than with any other form. That would be my first trigger on the first part of your question, how does violence show up in literature. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much, and above all for building this bridge to the topic of violence in art too — the expert who joined us in that room was Michael Nolte. That expert talk has been recorded, though not published yet, it’ll come out at some point soon, so feel free to listen to it if you couldn’t join yourself. It was really, really exciting, the different levels that got opened up there. And since literature is also a part of art, so to speak, I find it wonderful to build these bridges here too, and think in different directions. And yes, language as the actual realization of thought, as nicely as you just put it — we could say, let’s pick that up as a thesis for now, to see if one person or another might want to jump in here too, and share their thoughts on it. And I find it really exciting to look at this on the level of content too. Maybe it’s easier for us in one place or another — we have, on one hand, the meta-level we can look at this from, and on the other hand we can maybe also bring in really concrete examples too, to make depicted violence in literature clear through a concrete example, and then abstract from that back to the middle level, so we can draw on examples here too.
While you were talking, Jürgen, a book immediately came to mind for me — I remember reading it at some point during school. I’d really have to think about what the book was called. In any case, this book was about, among other things, suicidal thoughts. And what I found really interesting, and what stuck with me, is that visually — in written art too, imagery gets used, in the sense that metaphors get employed, or analogies get drawn, and so on — and here it was about him ordering a juice, of all things. I’d have to think about what fruit it was. And interestingly, in the companion booklet you can always buy alongside, which deals with interpretations of these books, it turned out that this was used symbolically, so to speak, to express his suicidal thoughts. I found that really fascinating. I probably wouldn’t have come up with that on my own at all. That means sometimes it’s really, really interesting to bring in different interpretations alongside the reading, to think beyond your own horizon on this too. And so I’d like to say it was pomegranate juice, that’s exactly it — I remember, it was pomegranate juice that got ordered. And that got connected to the thought of, well, suicidal thoughts. Jürgen, can you do anything with these impulses?
With a concrete impulse now, with Thomas Mann and pomegranate juice? Unfortunately, no. That’s of course an aspect — I believe we already touched on this too — an expression of violence, namely violence against oneself, which I find a really, really essential point, one that wouldn’t have occurred to me in the first moment at all. Following on from your subtitle, when I read the title yesterday, a book popped into my mind too — because in the second half of the sentence you ask the question, and what can we learn from books, so, what can we learn, and I’ll try to put this as neutrally as possible, from the depiction of violence. And my point of reference from literature was, I believe, last year or the year before, the Oscar-nominated, or even Oscar-winning, film adaptation of the novel by Erich Maria Remarque, “All Quiet on the Western Front.” And that came to mind for me immediately, because the subject of this book is the short life, and also the end of the life, of a young person in the great catastrophe of the last century, in World War One. And in this book, essentially, the purpose is to depict violence, and to depict it as a negative expression of human destructiveness. And as a device for that, at the beginning and in many parts of the book, the glorification of violence, the enthusiasm for violence gets portrayed. So we’re all certainly familiar, or a lot of us are familiar, with these images of the initial enthusiasm for war, especially in the First World War, where people of different backgrounds were called to arms, and basically actually looked forward to violent conflict, and I see a really essential aspect in the depiction of violence in literature there too, namely, sensitizing us as readers to this topic of violence. And I’d like to build a bridge here to the trigger you brought up at the start, the fairy tales, which were originally written for adults, and essentially, in many parts, actually had this theme of violence and the depiction of violence in them too. And now the question arises, and here’s the second sentence, the second part of your subordinate clause, what can we learn from that? And I’d say that’s the essential aspect, and the mandate, of this art form too, in this sector of depicting violence — sensitization, and making this fundamental destructiveness, in the form of violence, evident, and showing the possibility of how this violence can be contained, or prevented. So, for me, art in this genre has a moral-ethical mandate. That’s what I have to say for now. Thank you for listening.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. And while you were telling this, the next book already popped into my mind too, also following on from the learnings, to sensitize, maybe also to create understanding, and maybe also show possible limits — namely the book “The Wave.” A lot of you will probably know it, and for those who don’t, it’s definitely worth reading too. It’s about a report on a classroom experiment that simply went too far. Students kept asking the teacher questions along the lines of, how could something like the Second World War even happen? Or all these developments that led up to it. A lot of people insisted they hadn’t even noticed certain things happening. But for a lot of students, that was like, how can that be, that people didn’t notice, or something like that? Could it be that so many people got swept along, in quotation marks, to do something really terrible, contributing to it directly or indirectly? And that led to a kind of experiment taking place. And I don’t want to go into the details here, since that should remain a “surprise” for anyone who actually intends to read the book. And the book is basically a nice example to show — and it’s nice because you really get drawn into the whole thing — that it can always happen again, that there are certain phenomena that take hold and come together, which can ultimately lead to things like this. So, from this angle of learnings, on one hand it sensitizes, but on the other hand the book also shows, I think, “limits,” in the sense that even if we’re sensitized to it, that doesn’t mean we notice it immediately when something similar starts brewing again. So maybe it takes things like enormous mindfulness and so on, and you could derive various other aspects from that too. So that was another book that just popped into my mind directly. Maybe you know this book too, Jürgen — I’m fairly sure you do, especially since I just saw the emojis. So maybe you’d like to follow up on this too?
Yes, gladly. I remember this book very well, and the film adaptation too. It was made into a film, and I think, if I may allow myself that judgment, it’s a successful cinematic adaptation of the book. Although I think, in the development of this theme that’s shown there, for me it’s essentially the big overarching frame of indoctrination, which, through the goal connected to it, can lead, and has led, to violence eventually, and that we have this borderline area there — on one hand we’re talking about power and abuse of power, and on the other hand violence. And if I may come back to the original title, dear Yasemin, how does violence show up in literature — and I’ll quite deliberately stick with the term violence, not power, because for me violence is a direct physical and psychological effect on someone else. It’s a subset that represents power, but power doesn’t necessarily have to be connected with violence, as we’ve discussed before. So, for me, these forms of depiction are maybe also a connecting point where I’d say, we already discussed that there’s typical physical violence, there’s this psychological violence, we had the topic of bullying, for example, humiliation, degradation, and we also touched on the topic of sexual violence, especially in relation to partnerships. And for me, today’s topic is explicitly aimed, or tuned, to this depiction, and the effects on the reader, of these possible types of violence — but not to power. I don’t know how you see it.
Yes, I’m absolutely with you on that. And especially with the book “The Wave,” it’s really been a while since I read it, I’d probably have to reread it, or watch the film again here too, but I remember that these aspects of violence are definitely in there too — violence from one group against another group that doesn’t belong, you could put it quite bluntly like that. And I find it really fascinating too, because there were aspects in this book, or in the film adaptation, where a group developed, that then used a certain, I don’t remember exactly what it was, whether it was a shirt or some kind of badge or something along those lines. In any case, they used some kind of partial uniform element, you could maybe say, for recognition, to identify who belongs and who doesn’t belong among the class or school members, so to speak, the students. And we’ve talked about this aspect of uniforms in different directions before too. And that’s why I find it really fascinating that this aspect comes up again in “The Wave” too. Maybe you remember that better than I do, Jürgen.
Yes, you’re really building a great bridge there for me too, between power, expression of power, or this attainment of power through very specific, non-violent tools — for example through the clear identification of belonging to an identity, in this case it was a class identity, and through marking, I belong, that counts, this sign of the wave, if I remember correctly, but also this hand gesture, for example, a hand gesture — we’d have to think back over 100 years, or 80 years. There was a significant hand gesture back then too, that expressed belonging to a very specific political movement. And that existed with the Romans too, and in other cultures. So, for me, that’s exactly this position where I’d say, we’re talking about power there, essentially about power through very specific means, to influence someone else’s will in my own sense. In many cases, not all, but in many cases, that’s also the gateway to violence for me. Namely, if you don’t belong to me, I exclude you, then I act on you with violence, in the form of physical or psychological violence, and so on. But if you’ll allow me to bring in one more aspect — the fundamental question of why violence gets depicted in literature at all. And, mind you, negative violence. We’ve already defined before that there’s also a positive violence, namely the kind that stops negative violence, or eradicates it. So I’m talking about negative violence. And if we know that this negative violence is an expression of human destructiveness, it can really only cause harm in its negative form. So why does it get depicted in literature? Or, if you interpret it really strictly, why isn’t this depiction of violence banned much more consistently than it partly already is? That’s a point that’s been triggering me on today’s topic too. Thank you.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Really exciting questions, which also lead me to further questions. First of all, one could maybe take the approach of saying, on the question of why violence gets depicted in literature, especially this negative side — we’d have aspects we could pick up as functions, things like enlightenment, sensitization. At the same time, another aspect comes to mind for me too, which goes a bit toward freedom of expression, namely that this might allow taboo topics to be addressed, or aspects that maybe can’t be discussed societally in other ways, and that this is where the aspect of freedom of expression comes into play again too. We could look at, and open up, that from different angles too. And then another question comes to mind, because you said, especially when it comes to the negative form of violence in the depiction in literature — how is it actually? Does literature also depict the positive form of violence? Maybe examples come to mind for us here too. It would maybe be quite interesting to look at that, or does it tend to be more the negative side that gets shown here? Jürgen, would you like to follow up on that too?
Yes, I’ll take that in relation to the first part of your remarks, and basically on the question of why it gets depicted — I’d like to make my understanding more concrete by saying, I think we’re essentially, with this “why,” already directly on the path toward answering the second part of your question, namely, what can we learn from it? And for me, one reason why this destructive, this negative aspect of violence gets depicted at all is a consistent first step in relation to a learning process connected to it, and to be achieved through it. Because I think the first thing that has to happen at all — and I believe you already used the term too — is this recognizing, this sensitizing to this topic in the first place. That the reader, in this case, in this art form, recognizes the underlying subject at all, namely the forms in which negative violence can express itself. I have to recognize this first, that’s my conviction regarding the sequence of a “learning process.” I have to recognize it first, in any case. I need to get a stimulus, I need a motivation to be able to engage with this topic. And the second thing is then, all the way to the learning effect, namely changing, or adapting, my behavior toward my fellow human beings afterward accordingly, or seeing it confirmed. I need a certain reflection process in between. A reflection process that, for example, also leads to the realization that violence doesn’t only have a negative side, but also has a positive side. And the result, in relation to a lot of questions and motivations that come up — well, now we can discuss this — I’d rather say it’s an insight. It goes beyond mere knowledge, it’s an insight, an insight with which I position myself on the topic of violence, both in terms of positive and negative violence. And based on that, I can then, and will then, adapt my behavior too. So, to make a long story short, it’s basically this initial recognizing, engaging with, being confronted with, through literature. Engage with it, read this, even if what I’m now documenting for you in word and writing is despicable. Read it, reflect on it, and arrive at insight, and change your behavior. That’s the chain for me. And let me say one more thing — the topic of freedom of expression is a really essential topic for me. Thank you for bringing that up. Freedom of expression in word and writing. A fundamental right, no censorship takes place. And if we look left and right, and also at our own backyard right now, there are, for me at least, a few big question marks that have come up in that direction. And I think that’s a topic too where the scope would definitely jump quite a bit, this connection, but it’s absolutely important and necessary to mention it here too. Thank you.
Yes, thank you so much, and I think that makes this relevance clear once more too. And while you brought this in at various points, another thought came to me as an additional impulse too, that we have different stylistic devices available to us here too, and through that we can open up, or unlock, further access points to various topics too. I’m thinking, quite classically, of something like satire, for example, which is also used as a stylistic device, on one hand to address taboo topics, and at the same time also to approach topics with a certain element of, say, humor or similar. And especially from literature, there are countless ways to pick up topics that have societal relevance, or political relevance, whatever it concerns, so that you can really address these complex topics here. And by using different stylistic devices — even just the decision, do I write this as a novel or more as a short story — you also reach the reader differently in each case. And then, consequently, I think it’s also nice to maybe leave the ending open to some extent, in the sense that it allows for different interpretations. And that’s also something that gets given as an impulse here again, where not everything is already fixed in terms of what has to come out of it in the end, but rather, what the goal might be, for example sensitization as a very concrete goal, but what the reader actually recognizes, where exactly it connects, what gets done with it and how it gets handled, lies, to some extent, in the reader’s own hands too. Jürgen, what do you think about that?
I find it fitting that you start, or bring up, this example with satire. I’ll take that now as water for my mill, so to speak. What I said earlier is a really fitting example for this — with satire, I reach, in a lot of people, I’ll assume, exactly this triggering, setting this stimulus, to engage with this topic at all. And now it depends, and this is a characteristic of every literary depiction, it depends on using this stylistic device to eventually get the turn, within the reflection process, where the laughter gets stuck in your throat, and you recognize what it’s actually about, what the true underlying subject and topic represents. But, I fully agree with you, it’s a very effective tool for a lot of people to set this trigger, this motivation, I’ll say it again, this “let me read this now, because this is great,” and if it gets parodied, then there’s definitely something there to bring you to this reflection process, and to say, hey, watch out, this is actually about something really serious, and now the laughter is stuck in my throat. That’s what I’d call it. I found that a really fitting example.
Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. Yes, then, given the time, I’d like to slowly start wrapping up for today. Against the background that today, on top of everything, the circumstances for being here in exchange with you are more challenging than usual. But we’ve almost made it — we’re well on our way, and I assume that tomorrow everything will run smoothly again, as usual. And with that, I’m looking forward to it already, and I’ll gladly take the opportunity to move into today’s closing round now. Jürgen, what are the highlights for you from the room? And what can we hold on to together from your point of view?
Yes, the absolute highlight is really that you made this room happen at all. That has to be said. So, hats off, dear Yasemin, and thank you so much for that. Also, once again, a topic that… and reading has accompanied me my whole life. I’m basically a voracious reader of literature. But even today, unfortunately, in quotation marks, in this dialogue between just the two of us, so many trigger points came up again. And it shows that the quality of the topics in this room, for me, really represents the absolute best of what you actually get offered here in the Clubhouse space. Thank you so much again for that. And I’m looking forward to tomorrow, and wish you all a safe onward journey. Thank you. Ciao, take care.
Yes, thank you so much. I can relate to that too, in the sense that it’s really exciting to keep picking up these topics from different perspectives, and discovering them together. So the book “The Wave” wasn’t prepared in any way for this context — it’s actually something that emerged here in the room together with you, through the exchange. So I didn’t walk into the room already having “The Wave” in mind, thinking, that’s a good example to bring up — rather, through the impulses, through the exchange, exactly these thoughts emerge, and we enter into a reflection process together too, to sort our thoughts and let the whole thing keep resonating afterward, and see what effect it has on us. Maybe just a brief note, because I’ve already seen the message from someone twice today, also in one of the other rooms before — they keep briefly popping in to ask a question, and then disappear again right away, saying they still don’t understand why only two people talk here and everyone else has to listen. Does that mean you learn more, question mark? Maybe for those who aren’t regularly in the room — no, actually more contributions are really welcome. For me, it’s a prerequisite that we’re always at least two people, because otherwise it’s a monologue, and maybe some content I put out there, but no shared reflection. So really, do use the opportunity here to join in. I just make sure that from about a quarter to, quarter to nine, no further requests to speak get taken into account anymore, so we can manage to wrap up on time. So if you raised your hand too late, that’s why, just so you can understand that — but feel free to join in anyway. And provided the room rules, which I keep mentioning, are met, you’re all very warmly invited to join in and step into the exchange. Because the more different perspectives we have to talk about, the more impulses come up in the exchange too, which we can then bring in here in various, richly faceted ways, and that’s what enriches the room. And it varies a lot, from my perception — some rooms, it’s just two people talking the whole time, and then there are other rooms where we’ve had five, six, seven people up on stage at times. So you’re invited to contribute your part too, to make this room as richly faceted as possible. I’m definitely looking forward to tomorrow — we’ll continue with the power of music, and, in brackets, industry, so the power of music and the music industry. And we want to look at the question, how do power and violence show up through, and within, music, or the music industry? Another area of art, so to speak. And I’m really curious about that too, because it’s another very specific area we’re picking out here, again under the overarching theme of power and violence. And with that, I’m looking forward to hopefully welcoming you all again tomorrow morning in the round, when we talk about this. I think today’s room set off a few impulses for me too, about how exciting it actually is to think through and examine, from these different perspectives, the reading material we sometimes go through in everyday life too. And maybe you’ll take today’s room question with you too, to let it keep resonating, and to look at one piece of literature or another that you’ve recently read from this angle, and see what you discover there too. So, with that, I wish you all the best, and sorry again for the background noise. I’m still glad we were able to hold the room together though — that we didn’t let anything drop, and really pushed through with all the topics we planned, and tomorrow, hopefully, again in peace, with quiet in the background, so we can understand every word even better. With that, I wish you all the best, and I’m looking forward to tomorrow. Ciao!
