#900 Future Skills I

Brain Food for Pioneering Spirits: what actually separates a “skill” from a genuine “competence,” and why does a student choosing Food, Mechanical Engineering, and Psychology electives get closer to real future skills than a traditional curriculum ever could? In Room #900 of the Deep Talk Club — the milestone 900th episode — under our overarching theme “Pioneering Spirit with brAIn,” the group revisits future skills after a lost recording, tracing the educational mandate back through the Enlightenment, testing Jürgen’s skills-vs-competencies triangle, and hearing Sabine’s son’s exchange-year stories about 3D-printed phone clamps and a teacher who never guessed she had a tenth grader in her class. Listen in on the examples that came up and the perspectives that emerged in dialogue…

Note: This session was recorded live in German as part of the Deep Talk Club, so the video above is German-language audio only. What follows is an English translation of the conversation, lightly edited for readability — the back-and-forth between the moderator and participants is preserved, but the original timestamps and speaker names have been left out.

A very good morning to you. Today we’re continuing with, hopefully, a small recap on the topic of future skills. We already talked about this a few days ago and didn’t really get all the way through it, because there was so much to say and such a lively discussion and exchange on the topic, so we’d already decided to do a part 2 anyway. And it was only after the session that I discovered a recording had run, but somehow the audio track hadn’t come through. And that’s why I decided that we shouldn’t just pick the topic up again for a part 2, but that we could also briefly go into a recap here first. That means, for those who were there, simply pitching in and helping us briefly summarize accordingly. That helps anyway to continue with the second part, so to speak, and then look again at all the aspects that come together here. And in that sense you’re very warmly invited to join and enter the exchange too, to open up the various perspectives on the topic. And once again as a reminder, the room is recorded the entire time and published afterward too. Whoever joins automatically agrees to that. That’s one thing. The other is we have three small room rules: a profile photo in which you’re clearly recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence in your bio. Whoever doesn’t want that for whatever reason, wants to stay anonymous or similar, is warmly invited to simply contribute thoughts, questions etc. via the chat, so that we can pick up on that a bit over time too.

And yes, maybe briefly as a reminder for the start — last time we talked, among other things, a bit about the historical development, that in the context of the Enlightenment period, after feudalism, so to speak, the question arose, well, if in the future you no longer just take up the occupation your father did before, for example, but should be able to choose it in the future, the question arises how such a self-determined and free life can actually be shaped. And in that context there were many discussions, debates and so on. And what crystallized is that it’s important to accompany this self-determination to some extent, because a child doesn’t just know, straight from the cradle, what they want to become or which direction to go, but needs some accompaniment here too. And so an education discussion, or discourse, developed over the years, from which, on one hand, the educational mandate was derived, to say, okay, education, the educational mandate is to accompany an individually and communally conceived self-determination, involving self-organization, self-efficacy, and life competence. And especially this aspect of life competence came into the discussions much later, because people realized, well, self-determination is nice, but it also needs, for example, certifications or similar, so that you can make sure these people also find their way well on the labor market and so on. That means there were also many discussions about qualification and similar. But education is an umbrella under which qualification also plays a role, but qualification alone would also miss its purpose here regarding the educational mandate. And in that sense it always has to be thought together, not separately. And yes, and with all these discussions that came up, and the technological developments etc., a debate about key qualifications also emerged from the qualification discussions, because people realized, well, it’s not just the hard skills and so on that need to be conveyed here, but something overarching that people need, in quotation marks, to find their way in various situations. And these overarching aspects are basically education too. That means the key qualifications, the so-called key qualifications that are overarching, that we’ve now been talking about for many years. And now in the more recent discussion, with future skills and mega-learning, these terms are about signaling this a bit further. So basically it’s still about overarching key qualifications that should also serve this educational mandate. Just that, with other new terms that have been chosen, people want to signal to some extent that it’s not just the previous discourse, but that further aspects come in beyond that too. And here quite different aspects come in, and that’s what we want to talk about today — future skills, what actually falls under that, what are the challenges we have, and to look at that together here and gladly pick up various contributions from your perspective too. So, I’m really curious who’d like to join today and turn the monologue with me, so to speak, into a dialogue. And you’re warmly invited, really several people at once, to join, so that we can look at different perspectives here too. And while I wait to see who’d like to join first, maybe an announcement in this context too — it’s also nice when we have various announcements to make. Today isn’t just about future skills, so to speak, it’s also the 900th episode at the same time, and as if it had been requested or ordered, today we also have — Patrick Wenke mentioned this recently when he was here for the conversation, for the interview — and today we have a five-part series on hr-Fernsehen. Starts today at 6:45 pm, every day, on the topic of happiness. “Date with Happiness” is the name of the episode. You just went live. Thanks. So yes, the five-part series “Date with Happiness” starts today at 6:45 pm with Patrick Wenke and other personalities who can contribute something on the topic. So please tune in, watch it, we’re really curious and looking forward to it too. It runs today through Friday, each day at 6:45 pm. If you’re unable to catch one episode or another due to time, you also have the option afterward to watch it again in the media library. And on Wednesday there’s also a segment of mine about the interplay of change and happiness from a neuroscience perspective included too. So I think that’s really exciting, and I’d be happy if you watch it and maybe one or another of you sends feedback on it.

Yes, exactly. A very good morning, dear Jürgen, what do you say about the topic of future skills?

Yes, good morning, dear Yasemin, good morning everyone in the room. Since I’m unexpectedly able to be with you again now, which makes me very happy, especially for this topic that you’ve now pinned to the wall, future skills, is indeed a bit of a heart’s matter for me in the context of education. But first I’d like to express my heartfelt congratulations for your 900th episode. I’ll repeat myself, it’s an incredible achievement for me — 900 days in a row, every morning, with this competence, and not just in terms of expert knowledge, but also regarding your performance as moderator, lifting these topics again and again to an absolutely useful, certainly useful for everyone, level, that commands my highest respect, dear Yasemin, and I find it wonderful that I can be with you again today to express that once more. There’s a lot to say on the topic itself, you already introduced it, but I’d like to step back now and see if someone else comes on stage too, to see how this topic, which itself shows a very great complexity too, develops. But I’ll stay on stage and will gladly join in. Thank you for listening, dear ones.

Yes wonderful, thank you so, so much also for your kind words, which I’m really happy about. And yes, 900 episodes, we’ve achieved that, together by the way. And I’m amazed again and again at how quickly time passes and flies by, in quotation marks. At the same time I’m happy that it’s basically become a kind of routine, and I really do look forward to every day and every episode in which we together open up new perspectives on various topics in exchange, and so accordingly today too. And yes, a really warm invitation to everyone to join. I can still remember, we said, not without reason, that we wanted to do a room part 2. At that point we didn’t know yet that the recording was running, but the audio track was missing. And that’s why we now have part 1 and part 2, so to speak, and can gladly go into the recap a bit again, in order to then continue again, without maybe spreading out everything in detail again. But I’ll gladly leave that up to you. I do remember, though, that there really was a very lively discussion, and that was also the reason why we said one room isn’t enough at all for this topic. We definitely need to continue into a follow-up there, and in that sense I’m really curious. Maybe a few keywords I’d noted down again, which also came up or were discussed last time — among other things I’d picked up the aspect of ambiguity tolerance, especially in times when, due to this high speed that exists and the complexity that arises with all these topics, a kind of uncertainty or unclarity emerges, and it’s about looking at how best to develop this tolerance too, to deal with uncertainties and unclarities, so dealing with fields of tension, dilemmas, so contradictions etc., and also being able to endure quite unresolvable contradictions accordingly. Then we had an aspect that went in the direction of thinking and acting in scenarios, so really playing through different scenarios too, as we also call it here in Deep Talk, or as I often call it, juggling thoughts, so to speak, to play through different scenarios — that this is increasingly something that’s needed more, also in training itself. Then we’d addressed the aspect that it’s becoming increasingly important to be able to differentiate, with all this flood of information, and to distinguish what’s actually information versus actual knowledge. And that’s increasingly not so easy at all, especially with all the developments in artificial intelligence and so on, where it’s becoming increasingly harder than before, so to speak, to actually still be able to distinguish that. We talked about how there’s video material, for example, where you don’t even know exactly anymore whether it’s manipulated or not, whether it’s fake news for example, and similar. That means it also requires, at one point or another, a certain amount of research, or the ability to research and analyze, in order to be able to come to insights yourself and not just consume, in quotation marks. And we’d also talked, among other things, about the imagination competence that needs to be developed. So in the sense of thinking visionary too — “that’s not possible, doesn’t exist,” put very bluntly. And here maybe as an example, Ford, who, in order to develop one thing or another, actually brought experts onto the team, and every time they said it wasn’t possible, kept letting them continue, in quotation marks. So not accepting this “not possible,” so to speak, in quotation marks, but rather, against the background of development, if we look back in human history, there are so many examples where people researched certain things and others declared them crazy or insane, because it was simply unimaginable that a breakthrough could succeed here. And they actually did succeed in many areas, and in that sense it makes sense to just keep at things and to further develop this imaginative power, so to speak, and based on this imaginative power, then look at how it can become possible, and accordingly also dare many, many attempts, in order to find answers.

Yes, well, Jürgen, we’re still on our own. So I’ll play the ball back to you for now.

Yes, I’ll gladly take the ball, dear Yasemin, namely on two points that I’d like to preempt right away. First, my favorite question, which has to come up with a new topic — when the buzzword is “future skills,” the question that presses itself on me is, for what? And the second is, you said it in the course of your last contribution, the word “competence” comes up. And you know, or you all know, that I’m very particular about terminology. And for me, skills basically ranges in a triangle — I don’t want to say necessarily, but yes, somewhat in the middle as a sequential order, namely regarding the terms abilities, then skills, and then competencies. So I make, and I know that in many publications this isn’t done, but I make a clear distinction between competence and skills, and I also make a distinction between skills and abilities. And if the topic is now called future skills, we’ve indeed already had this topic once in a room, I can remember now. And there too my question was in connection with the “what for.” Do we now understand these future skills as skills that don’t exist yet, and are future because they’re new? Or are those skills that are particularly necessary for our visionaries or for an assumed future, meaning skills that build on already existing skills and are only modified to a certain extent, and have to be modified, for this future? Those would be my two thoughts, entry points, for this topic — admittedly no answers, but maybe a suggestion in the area of triggering a clarification or a discussion. Thank you.

Yes wonderful. Thank you so, so much. Then let’s directly bring Sabine in too, and see what thoughts she’s brought on the topic, and then we can gladly draw connections again too. Sabine, a very good morning.

A very good morning. I too would of course like to congratulate you on your new hundreds. I find it enormous that you’re present here every morning like that. Incredible. That’s of course not the case with everyone, like with me this morning — my son is back, so my day runs a bit differently. But over the weekend I also talked with him about education. You know he was in Canada for a year, and he says the level isn’t that high. That’s why, as a tenth grader, he actually attended twelfth-grade math, and over the weekend he met with friends and discussed what they’ve since done in math. All very interesting. But he says he did everything with joy. He did a lot of things around it, where teamwork was really front and center. So in almost every subject he worked on projects with others somehow, which is probably also a future skill — I mean, we have it today too, but do we really practice it that way, or do we rather focus first on outcompeting the competitor? And he says he got to look into so many things that don’t even exist with us in theory. So he says he was incredibly happy, he showed me his yearbook, and on the last page every teacher had formulated an individual sentence about him, about what characterizes him. I found that amazing. So they get this kind of report card, they get it quarterly, that already says something. But now also as a summary, so to speak. Well, we’ll see. He went to school today and wants to talk with the teachers about how things continue from here. Interesting, maybe another thing — I also talked this week with a friend who’s a journalist, has three kids herself, and we discussed the topic a bit too, and we disagreed quite a bit there, because as a journalist she says humanistic education in Germany is the be-all and end-all for her. And her son happens to be in Heidelberg now, was in Ohio, and she says the level over there is just terribly bad. So opinions differ quite a bit there. I stick with my opinion — I think for me the be-all and end-all would be that motivation is there. And motivation comes from things being fun for people, and them then also deepening the topics through that and continuing to work on them, and not just doing the compulsory work and very often dropping out entirely. That was my contribution. Sorry that I didn’t quite build on what you said, Jürgen, but it occurred to me in parallel. But I’m sure we can continue with your topic.

Yes wonderful, thank you so, so much. Let me quickly follow up on something. You said, among other things, that your son mentioned he got to look into a lot of things that don’t even exist with us in theory. Do you maybe have one or two examples, so we can picture what that means?

Yes, I even have four examples. First, they had a lot of subjects that, for me, actually belong to life. And in his case now, he chose Food, meaning cooking. On one hand that was practical too — they were really in the kitchen, but they also covered the components of food and could work in the cafeteria, to see a restaurant operation, so to speak. That was that. Then he had a subject Mechanical Engineering, where the teacher came in and said, over the next half year we’ll all solve a problem of yours. And they had to come up with a problem themselves, and could then program the solution and print it on a 3D printer. He made a kind of clamp for his phone where he could place his charger on top — the first one was too big, then he adjusted the second one. That one fit, and it was a total aha-moment — I produced something, I have something in my hands, I know how a 3D printer works. Then he had Psychology for another half year, he found that amazing. The teacher said she’d actually never taken a tenth grader before, but she didn’t know he was a tenth grader. In retrospect she said it was incredible with what enthusiasm he immersed himself in that. So that’s a great thing too. And the fourth — oh right, Business and Marketing was the fourth…

…of course at a relatively low level, but as a subject-taking student he got to look into that too. And those are indeed a lot of things too, and we’d already talked about it for other areas too, like for example climate, that something like that would also be taught as a basic subject, so that people in these areas simply develop further. Okay, many do it via YouTube or TikTok or whatever, but their enthusiasm is then something quite different, because that spurs young people on too, and I think that belongs to future skills too, as basic learning.

Yes wonderful, thank you so, so much. Then we have a few reference points to imagine what that means, what might make the difference here too. There’s maybe one thing or another at one school or another, but ultimately these aren’t really classic examples that we can find widely spread across all schools now. Sometimes there are project assignments that lead to one topic or another being picked up at one point or another. Sometimes it’s subjects like ethics or similar, where something like climate or similar might be discussed. But by and large it’s at least not included in the classic curriculum, in quotation marks. I think we can at least establish that as a difference. With that I’d now like to look at making connections too, regarding the questions you brought in, Jürgen — on one hand maybe you’d like to start here too, and regarding the “what for” etc., maybe give some reference points again, what your thoughts are on why it’s necessary from your point of view, and at the same time also gladly use the opportunity to connect again to what Sabine said.

Yes, thank you, Yasemin. I’ll try. Thank you, Sabine, for your contribution. I do think there’s, for me at least, an essential connection to be made to this, especially to my question of what for. Because what you described goes, for me, more in the direction of the students developing toward, I’ll say, life skills, and being guided to develop toward life skills. I deliberately don’t say competencies, but life skills, while with us, unfortunately, this typical subject-based thinking still exists in our schools and educational institutions, which basically — I know I might have a somewhat radical approach here — continues a centuries-old tradition of categorizing these subjects accordingly, regarding what content of quality needs to be provided, especially serving the labor market. And the labor market is, as you know, one of the three essential pillars of influence of our state organizations, alongside health and care, is education and work. And work — those are the three essential state support points holding together this overall construct. And I found it very revealing, and I repeat myself, in that sense, also a connection to the “what for,” namely with these future skills, to give young people a different basis regarding their development, for being able to conduct themselves in future life, and not just find their way in the partial context of life that is work. Whereby work, for me, still isn’t — please don’t take this the wrong way — isn’t negatively connoted for me, and I also counter anyone who says, I don’t want to work, I don’t know, 40 hours a week anymore, I want to give my life meaning. I think with a well-chosen and appropriate job I actually have a huge resource to give my life meaning. But that’s exactly the point for me and a starting point for future skills, and for those responsible who guide young people, to find out, to develop, where these abilities lead, that at some point lead to a fulfilled work environment and life environment, so that life has meaning, and represent such a foundational basis for becoming happy too. Thank you again for that, Sabine, for your life-drawn examples, examples of your son. I think that’s a very good starting point. Thank you.

Yes, thank you so, so much. And Sabine also used a term, namely motivation, which I’d like to pick up again in this context too, because we’ve opened up this aspect again and again in various contexts. So motivation plays an important role in this context, because we’d said our brain is, so to speak, shaped in such a way that we always automatically ask ourselves two questions, without being aware of it. Namely, first the question, is what I’m hearing right now about existential security, meaning is my existence being threatened in some way? And the second is, what’s the use of it for me? And these questions are also constantly asked by students, so to speak, during class, without necessarily being aware of it. And if I don’t have a sufficient yes, so to speak, to the second question, what’s the use of it for me — we usually don’t need to look at the first question as intensively, because we don’t have the situation, in a classroom for example, that our existence is actually threatened. So it’s not about survival. That means the second question automatically kicks in, and if I can’t clearly recognize, so to speak, what’s the use of this to me in the future, for example on the labor market or also in everyday life, then there are a lot of question marks, and then the brain basically shuts down relatively quickly. Because the brain, per se, doesn’t want to expend energy in the first place. It works continuously and also uses a lot of energy, and is only willing to become active, so to speak, if there’s a good reason for it. And often — these can be various aspects now — it can simply be that, curriculum-wise, certain things are picked up that aren’t actually needed. Or it can also be that, even though it is needed, maybe the connection just isn’t always entirely clear, which can have something to do with age on one hand, and with the teacher on the other, how the learning material is conveyed. There are many aspects that come together here, something like time pressure, for example. In many schools we notice, for example, teacher shortages and so on. So many challenges come together here that mean motivation can’t always be fully sparked, in quotation marks, because it’s not entirely clear what it’s all for. And there we’re back at this aspect of “what for.” And yes, I’d like to expand the whole thing a bit further, because with the term education we often automatically think of school, whereas especially in all these discussions etc. it becomes very, very clear that it’s been about lifelong learning for a long time now. That means it’s not limited to a certain age, neither for small children nor children of school age or adolescents. It continues with vocational training, then after training maybe a degree, higher education. But then it continues at the latest in the workplace context too. And even in retirement age, in quotation marks, that can certainly play a role, or should even play a role. There are nice findings from brain research, for example, that prove it’s important to keep the brain active too and keep juggling thoughts, to make sure the neural networks aren’t broken down. That has an influence, for example, on dementia etc. The longer we can also make sure that the structures in our brain can keep growing, keep staying connected, the healthier we are regarding aspects like dementia etc., and we only develop symptoms later too. So that’s one thing. The other thing is, of course, that the labor market is changing too. While years ago we still had the situation that someone, for example, started at a company and maybe worked there for 30, 40, 50 years, that question doesn’t arise anymore today. It’s quite clear that there are many people who change companies during the course of their career, so to speak. It’s often even the case that after two to three years, some maybe after five years, but that this change has become quite “normal” by now and is part of life. And now there’s also a special situation added, namely we’ve always thought and acted in the past against the background of various certifications, so to speak. What we can increasingly observe now is that it’s no longer the once-earned degree that’s relevant here, but for example a career change, a lateral entry, gets a really special role too. Against the background of all the technological developments we’ve also opened up under this overarching theme “Pioneering Spirit with brAIn,” it becomes clear that, for example, developments like artificial intelligence and so on mean that certain fields of tasks will no longer be carried out by humans in the future, but by the machine, so an automation, then deep learning taking place here and so on. And accordingly the question now, of course, is, is it then the case that I keep looking for a job where I go in with my original training, or isn’t it relatively clear even that it can no longer be the original training that applies here, but that I might have to learn something new, or relearn something? And then the question quickly arises, does that then have to be something where I do a new training again, or do I also get the opportunity, for example, to learn something on the job and develop further here? So many, many topics, all the way to, especially if we look at this demographic change too. That means people leaving companies against the background of their age, young people coming in. How can knowledge transfer be ensured here too, for example? And so it also becomes clear that everyone, so to speak, viewed in an overall picture, also has their position in society and also on the labor market, and isn’t more important or less important in their role, but is of significance in any case, with different perspectives that we can open up. One maybe against the background of experience, the other against the background of bringing in new knowledge in the context of technologies and application possibilities and so on. That means we have a relatively broad palette here, and that’s why it’s also important to expand this concept of education, not just to small children, but to view it as lifelong learning, and to discuss it accordingly against this background too.

Regarding your second question that you brought in earlier, Jürgen, I’d also like to say a word or two on that, and then we can gladly draw connections again, or I’ve already seen we have another hand raised, which I’d like to bring in too. Regarding the question, are these actually new skills that didn’t exist before, that need to be learned, or does that refer to something that’s possibly already there, but may transform again? So let me just call it, in view of what skills we’ll need in the future. And from my perspective I’d say, both are possibly included. And it also has to be viewed individually again. That means, especially when we open up lifelong learning and don’t just assume, for example, children or something. So on one hand we’ve always looked at people from the individual perspective who don’t yet have certain skills and get to learn them. And on the other hand we then have people who may have already learned one thing or another in the past. But even if we now take, as an example, someone who’s 30, not everyone has the same skills, even though the skills might already be discussed per se, and the necessity already recognized. So the question arises, new for whom? From a personal lens, it can certainly be new, even though it might not represent new skills in the form needed, in the discussion. That’s one thought I have on that. And the second is regarding future skills, so skills we’ll need in the future — I’m personally also convinced that there are certainly new ones too, beyond what we currently have. Only the answer to exactly which ones those are isn’t so easy to give, because future simply lies in the future, and in that sense — and that’s maybe also one of the skills we need — enduring not knowing exactly what’s needed, but being flexible accordingly when it is needed, to accept and deal with what’s new coming at us. Jürgen, would you like to say more on that, while I bring in the other hand raised directly?

Yes, thank you, dear Yasemin, I’d gladly do that. I’ll do it so I don’t forget it myself either. I’d like to pick up on three sub-areas or terms that you elaborated on. First, motivation, second you addressed experience, and the third point was now the topic future. On the topic of motivation, I think, and for me my mind map is opening up into bigger dimensions again right now, we’re at the really essential aspect that has to be considered with future skills too, namely the term mega-learning often comes up in this connection. And so in the kind of, or in the question, future skills on one hand and on the other, mega-learning, or what does mega-learning mean, or do we also need to rethink the way we learn and how we’re taught, and specifically regarding our future. That’s the first — that makes the dimension actually even a bit bigger now, this aspect, because then we’re really in the overall context of the explanatory variables for education. And the second sub-area was this aspect experience. And that’s exactly the essential difference, dear Yasemin, for me regarding the differentiation between skills and competencies. Namely competencies, not now in the sense of authority or instructional competence, but competence defined as being capable of something, being able to do something, and having done something. And this having-done-it — if I ask an applicant today what skills they have, then under certain model assumptions they’ve demonstrated quite specific personal abilities. But if they haven’t yet been able to prove these, I’ll say in normal life, in dealing with randomly assembled teams in a company under stress situations, then they — and this is entirely without judgment — for me they had skills, but not yet competence. Please note, that’s my personal opinion and specification. And the third point you addressed, alongside learning and experience, competence, was future. And I’ll say now, Yasemin and Sabine, recognizing that we have a future, and a changing one, and one that’s currently changing very quickly, is already the first necessary step, and I believe we all still see, to many people’s chagrin, that there’s a very broad capacity for staying put, starting with our — I don’t want to offend anyone — but with our education system, I’ll say, hopefully value-free enough, all the way through certain leadership structures in companies from, you can certainly explain this much better than I can, from this conscious not-wanting-to-change, in order to avoid having to take risks in familiar tracks. And in that sense, eyes closed, mouth closed, ears closed, and carry on as before. And I repeat myself, just recognizing that things can’t continue like this, and that otherwise we’ll run into a very big problem, not just economically, but also socially — that alone, in my opinion, is already the first step for future and the definition of future skills. Thank you for listening.

Yes wonderful, thank you so, so much, and I’ll gladly hand the floor to Sabine now too, but first I’d like to briefly point out that we have three room rules, and I hadn’t realized that earlier during the conversation. That’s why I’ve now rejected the hand-raise here again for now. You’re welcome to join. Three small room rules that apply equally to everyone, regardless of whether you’ve been on stage before, whether I can already categorize you or not, regarding genuine contributions too. I don’t want to question that for one person or another at all, but simply for fairness’s sake, so to speak, please make sure to have a profile photo in which you’re recognizable, first and last name, and at least one sentence. Whoever wants to stay anonymous for whatever reason can gladly do so, then please just share your question or your thought with us via the chat. Yes, Sabine, you wanted to continue?

Yes, on the topic of familiar tracks, I’d like to jump back in there. Yesterday my son also had two friends over, and we got to join for coffee, and through that we got a bit of feedback from a year of school. That was very interesting. So what I took away is, this teacher’s retiring, that teacher’s retiring, that one’s retiring. So many school teachers will be leaving too. What comes to me as a second point — will the teachers coming in also be able to convey the topic of agility? The second topic was then what they’d covered material-wise this year. In that subject, you don’t need to catch up on anything. That was also just lame anyway. That was a bit of what came across, and I have to say, what people usually tell you about it came across completely differently. He was motivated, he has fun, and I think that’s a bit of the be-all and end-all, and that of course also leads to them getting to thinking. Our son came home yesterday evening and asked, asked deep questions about the topic of my husband being employed versus my self-employment. He asked tax-related things, he asked things, and then said, a bit reproachfully — that was of course a joke — that we’d never talked to him about that. Well, why didn’t we talk to him about it? So I’m certainly the last person to withhold economics, but the problem is, if the other side isn’t interested at all, then you won’t get anything across either. Suddenly he’s interested in other things, and I think that’s a bit of the be-all and end-all — that they don’t necessarily need to be taught the ultimate knowledge, but interest and motivation, and then the wheel turns too, and maybe turns faster too, and then they maybe also know a bit more, in which direction the whole thing is going. That’s what I wanted to add. What else did I want to say? Oh right, exactly, on the topic of money — he asked us what we earn. He’d never done that before. He acted as if we didn’t want to tell him. We’d never talked about it, because it didn’t actually interest him. Suddenly he lived abroad for a year and had to manage with his own money, saw — he lived with two, I’ll say, somewhat socially disadvantaged families, and one very well-off one. And suddenly the thinking started for him. Also in the direction that, of course it’s clear for him he wants to do something he enjoys, but he also has to be able to live off it. So, that’s incredible. It really is incredible. I’m really thrilled.

Yes, thank you, Jürgen would you like to add something else, before we slowly move into the closing round for today?

Yes, sorry if this takes a bit, I’d really like to say thanks again, dear Sabine, for your remarks drawn from life, and they are, for me — don’t mind if I maybe instrumentalize them a bit for my argumentation — grist for the mill regarding this connection between future skills and mega-learning, the new way of learning connected to motivation, and who’s responsible for motivation? That’s the one who’s able to motivate our children and also our employees, namely the teacher. And we once had a room in connection with the overall topic of knowledge, where we also touched on socialization and learning. And back then I said, the first step actually toward learning and considering learning methods is, learning begins with the education and learning of the learning facilitator, the teacher. And there too, in my view, something significant needs to change, and essentially aim exactly at this position — not to convey a subject-predefined canon of information and knowledge, starting from the Pythagorean theorem all the way to, I don’t know, the first sentence of XY, but to awaken the motivation, so that for me this is a future skill, necessary within the framework of a future skill, and that I have an interest in engaging with it. And dear Yasemin and Sabine, I can very well relate to that from my own position. Your example with the money or with the taxes — with taxes, I’ll put it a bit bluntly, our generation, or many of us, grew up with our parents taking care of it as long as possible, until at some point you were thrown into the cold water. And that’s a sign for me that in this regard it’s not just about competencies for a very specific subject, but that competence to live, for life, needs to be pushed to the forefront, and that’s why a different form of learning and learning transfer has to take place for me too. Thank you.

Yes, thank you so, so much, and I think we can maybe pick up this aspect again tomorrow in room 2, if you’d like — exactly what does that mean in terms of design, and how would that actually need to look, also in the “distribution of tasks and roles,” so, for example, which part are parents responsible for from our point of view, which tasks and roles does a teacher take on, maybe especially in the work context the instructor too, and so on. So that we can maybe also look at it again from different perspectives, and maybe also pick up concrete examples. That would be one way we could continue tomorrow too. I’d actually like to slowly wrap up here now, because it’s too big a field, in my view, that if we started with it today, we wouldn’t get through it by 9 o’clock with our closing round today either. And yes, and with that I’d like to look at what the essential insights or highlights from the room are that you’d like to underline once more today, before I bring in a few summarizing words myself too. Jürgen, would you like to start?

Yes, gladly. Heartfelt thanks for your 900th excellent moderation and choice of topic, dear Yasemin. And heartfelt thanks, dear Sabine, to you too, for your life-drawn examples, which brought some life into my somewhat lofty, theoretical view. That was the highlight for me, and I’m looking forward to the continuation of this topic, because I think — I’ll go ahead and say it — the key topic, or the challenge, really, for our future. Future skills and future competencies. Thank you and a nice day to all of you.

Yes, thank you so, so much. Sabine?

Yes, I too would like to thank you again, Yasemin, for the 900th Deep Talk Club. You really do this superbly. And of course you too, Jürgen, you presented that again very scientifically and professionally. But I think we agreed on most topics. And I believe, no, I know, the topic of education is the be-all and end-all for everything, and flexibility in education. And not everyone needs to know everything. Many just need to know where it’s written down. That’s already enough. But motivation is the be-all and end-all for me, because I can drag someone by the collar — if they don’t move on their own, they won’t move. If they move forward themselves, I can help them run faster. There I certainly also have many options as a parent, whether financial or somehow showing possibilities, like, go in that direction and this one. But if the will isn’t there, then it just becomes difficult. Thank you, Yasemin.

Yes, thank you so, so much to you too, both for today and for the shared 900 rooms we’ve shaped together here, and for every single person who keeps joining, whether on stage or participating via the chat. And yes, I find it really exciting. There are a few points I’d like to say briefly in closing today, before we wrap up and continue the topic tomorrow. I find it very exciting, also regarding the topic future skills. I think it basically also fits with the room topic, to notice how one person or another behaves here in the room too. And we made a separate room on the room rules etc. too. And yes, things like patience, things like that — those aren’t new skills, we’ve certainly needed those in the past too, or things like, if certain rules apply in a room, then they apply. Do I discuss them, or do I just leave it? In quotation marks. Those are all aspects too, that for me fall under the context of this situation, for example. I find it always really, really exciting to observe, at this point, what discussions are sometimes conducted in the chat or similar. Maybe briefly again for one person or another, to make it understandable — I respect it if someone doesn’t want to openly identify themselves, and on the other hand I also expect that it’s respected that there are certain rules with us in the room, and there are good reasons for that. Not everyone has to approve of that, and whoever doesn’t find that good can also gladly “stay away,” in quotation marks, yes, and participate in other rooms that certainly also exist here on Clubhouse, and just join in there. So there’s nothing against that at all, and that’s not meant judgmentally at all. And things like, yes, is one person or another actually recognizable in the profile picture. For me it’s clearly better to recognize than a shoe, in quotation marks, sorry. But that’s always the personal, subjective opinion and evaluation too. I don’t think we need to discuss that. If it doesn’t suit one person or another, then just let it be. Then the question that came up in the chat — I explained why we won’t pick it up anymore today, but gladly address it tomorrow, because it’s simply too big to pick up this contribution in the last 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 minutes, that’s all there was, and the rooms are limited to 60 minutes. And also this comment at the end of the room, which I think is simply useless, in quotation marks, because it doesn’t bring anything, except that I might get annoyed or try to annoy the other person, in quotation marks. But honestly I find it telling how we sometimes treat each other, especially in times of social media and so on. And I think these are nice examples too regarding the topic future skills, for example social media, how we interact with each other. How do we comment? How do we treat each other? Are we anonymous? Yes, it does make a difference how I also act or how I behave, whether I identify myself or not. And accordingly also the comments that often come in this context. And that’s noticeable. And I mean, 900 episodes are 900 episodes of experience too. We’ve set up rules at some point over time, because we had certain experiences. That might not apply to everyone. Yes, so here too you always have to handle it carefully. But we’ve had good experiences that when we proceed the way we proceed — before we were four people, meanwhile I do it alone — that we can eliminate one thing or another this way, so to speak, and it doesn’t even come to that situation in the first place. And in that sense I just hope that one person or another, even if that might not always be approved of, still finds a way to deal with it. You’re still invited to join, also to listen, even if you stay anonymous and want to join. And I’d really, really appreciate it. There are certainly also faces in the audience where I keep thinking, oh, I’d actually like to learn more, get to know more, develop this personal closeness here on stage too, and in that sense this is also a really, really, really personal invitation to you today. Maybe you’ll reconsider it, but if you say “no, I don’t want to,” that’s entirely legitimate and that’s fine, then gladly continue writing via the chat. That maybe as one or two thoughts from my side to close the room today. I’m looking forward in any case to continuing with you tomorrow, part 2 of future skills, and I’m really, really curious which direction that will develop in. Briefly once more in closing, for those who maybe weren’t there in the first few minutes this morning — I’d announced earlier that there’s a five-part series today on “Die Ratgeber” on hr-Fernsehen, starting today, always at 6:45 pm, titled “Date with Happiness.” Patrick Wenke, the happyologist, whom you all know, is also part of it, and many other personalities who can contribute something on the topic. And whoever misses it for whatever time-related reasons also has the possibility afterward to watch it again in the media library. And on Wednesday there’s also a segment of mine on the interplay of change and happiness from a neuroscience perspective included too. So tune in if you’re interested. In that sense, I wish you a wonderful day and look forward to tomorrow. Until then. Ciao.